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  1. #101
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    So?
    So, I presume someone who defends gun ownership with that argument is okay with people having nuclear devices, or their argument is inconsistent and insincere, so either way they should probably take up a different argument.
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  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    So, I presume someone who defends gun ownership with that argument is okay with people having nuclear devices, or their argument is inconsistent and insincere, so either way they should probably take up a different argument.
    Then I would presume you are the kind closed minded observer that can't reconcile the difference between the real world and the slippery slope when that reconciliation works against the position he already holds.

  3. #103
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    So, I presume someone who defends gun ownership with that argument is okay with people having nuclear devices, or their argument is inconsistent and insincere, so either way they should probably take up a different argument.
    Is something wrong with being ok with nuclear devices?

    Seriously though. We don't have nukes because it would piss off the military if we did. It would be a national security nightmare, and would make disarmament treaties a joke.

    So no, it's not as illogical as you think.

  4. #104
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Then I would presume you are the kind closed minded observer that can't reconcile the difference between the real world and the slippery slope when that reconciliation works against the position he already holds.
    It's actually not a slippery slope. I'm not saying that gun ownership today means nuclear arsenals tomorrow. Rather, it's just reductio ad absurdum. It's a way of pointing out how little the reasoning involved holds, and it is applicable to something that really happens. That thing isn't the difference between guns and nukes because American citizens aren't using nukes, but it is applicable to the difference between using knives and guns. It's a rhetorical device to emphasize the poor logic that implies a gun and a knife (or even a pencil) aren't meaningfully different. Increased lethality is meaningful, and the old NRA argument is saying otherwise.

    Close minded has become, to me, a cheap and vacuous insult. I don't even advocate gun control laws, so you're barking up the wrong tree.
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  5. #105
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    Get outside and get some fresh air, I think the amount of time you spend in in books and on the internet is doing you a disservice.

  6. #106
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    It's actually not a slippery slope. I'm not saying that gun ownership today means nuclear arsenals tomorrow. Rather, it's just reductio ad absurdum. It's a way of pointing out how little the reasoning involved holds, and it is applicable to something that really happens. That thing isn't the difference between guns and nukes because American citizens aren't using nukes, but it is applicable to the difference between using knives and guns. It's a rhetorical device to emphasize the poor logic that implies a gun and a knife (or even a pencil) aren't meaningfully different. Increased lethality is meaningful, and the old NRA argument is saying otherwise.

    Close minded has become, to me, a cheap and vacuous insult. I don't even advocate gun control laws, so you're barking up the wrong tree.
    The argument doesn't say that they aren't different.

    What they are actually doing is trying to avoid the Sorites paradox.

    Yes, a gun is more dangerous than a knife. Who would deny that? What they are asking though, is at what point do you conclude 'more dangerous' to be 'too dangerous' without just being totally arbitrary?

  7. #107
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    The argument doesn't say that they aren't different.

    What they are actually doing is trying to avoid the Sorites paradox.

    Yes, a gun is more dangerous than a knife. Who would deny that? What they are asking though, is at what point do you conclude 'more dangerous' to be 'too dangerous' without just being totally arbitrary?
    Regulations always face that problem. I myself point to the fact that there isn't really any statistical evidence that gun control laws reduce gun violence. Not just other kinds of violence, but gun violence,. For that reason it all seems moot to me, but if you're someone who's convinced that control of weapon ownership can be effectively achieved, you'll have to find some standard. Perhaps the question isn't so much a matter of how dangerous and object is, but how useful it also is for anything other than killing people and whether or not it had ever been designed for another purpose.
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  8. #108
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Regulations always face that problem. I myself point to the fact that there isn't really any statistical evidence that gun control laws reduce gun violence. Not just other kinds of violence, but gun violence,. For that reason it all seems moot to me, but if you're someone who's convinced that control of weapon ownership can be effectively achieved, you'll have to find some standard. Perhaps the question isn't so much a matter of how dangerous and object is, but how useful it also is for anything other than killing people and whether or not it had ever been designed for another purpose.
    That's true, and is called legal heuristics. It's for that reason that there's a legal drinking age, and an age of consent, and an age that one becomes an adult regardless of maturity or individual fringe cases.

    The true issue though is the mode of operation that regulation takes. Is it first resort, or is it damage control?

    Do we regulate all dangers first as a default stance and then allow freedoms, or do we allow freedoms and then regulate as little as possible?

  9. #109
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    An aside from our lovely gun control debate.

    Kids at Tragedies: Turn Off the Cameras
    Minutes after they made it to safety outside the school, having heard and seen unspeakable things, cable, network and local TV crews were waiting to interview them, live on camera, about things a kid should never have to talk about. Flanked by their parents, boys and girls too young to see an R-rated movie described being hustled to safety as bullets whizzed by them in the halls of their school.

  10. #110
    Klingon Warrior Princess Patches's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    There was a post on Reddit from someone who live in Newtown to a similar effect. Not just about the children, but the fact that they were trying to gather in a church and mourn together... And anytime someone would break down in tears the first thing you would hear was an onslaught of camera shutters from all the reporters.

    Here's an excerpt:
    “Everybody has a secret world inside of them. All of the people of the world, I mean everybody. No matter how dull and boring they are on the outside, inside
    them they've all got unimaginable, magnificent, wonderful, stupid, amazing worlds. Not just one world. Hundreds of them. Thousands maybe.” -Neil Gaiman

    ~

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