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  1. #91
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    I know for a fact that is a military rifle and those hand guns...those guns are designed for one reason only, to conceal and kill. So, my point is that these aren't hunting weapons. They're not even self-protection weapons. These are weapons designed for killing.
    Without making the obvious argument that all weapons could be designed for killing, you can't really say that they can't be at least self protection weapons. I've noticed that people have this crazy fear of assault rifles like their only possible use is to kill people. Practically the only difference is that it has a larger magazine.

    Hand guns are obviously self defense weapons and I could defend myself with an AR much easier than I could with a hunting rifle.
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

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    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  2. #92
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patches View Post
    Consider the same day in China, a man stabbed just as many children.
    Just imagine how much more effective he could have been with a gun.

  3. #93
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    The focus is too much on mental health care imo. It's one of the issues gun-control opponents apparently love to bring up (along with more people packing, which rings hollow in a kindergarten killing). Focus the attention on the killer and what a 1 in a million freak he was. While people are groping around for suggestions on how to reform the health system they aren't clamouring for gun-control. But really I'm sure if any one of us went on this sort of killing spree those left behind would find it easy to connect the dots to us being mass-murderers. Kind of quiet? Some mental health issues? Not all that many friends? Intelligent? Lots of time spent squirreled away in our rooms on the internet? Killer!
    Meh. I mean, in a very very general sense you're right, but the two people Patches referred to really were beyond that. We might be those things, but people in our lives wouldn't necessarily automatically assume we had done something hellacious without knowing whether we were involved or not; these guys are a little different. I've meet introverts, and I've met curmudgeons, and then I've met people who seriously are a step up and leave my skin crawl a bit. It's still a bit of a leap.

    Why is it that America alone of the western world has such deadly consequences for mental health issues? Yes I agree that the attention should also be on mental health care, but I think the attention should mainly be on gun control. It seems you have 2 options: a highly trained, ubiquitous, empowered mental health system able to discern the difference between tween angst and incipient mass murder, or better gun control laws. I know which I consider more realistic.
    Gun control seems more tangible. Yet every time something happens, these arguments all get engaged, and little seems to change. When I actually read about them in detail, it seems more complicated than just putting more laws on the books. People also like to toss around the 2nd Amendment rules, which complicates getting a lockdown on anything. I'm not sure whether those kinds of rules take place in constitutions of other countries (such as neighboring Canada); does anyone know? There's also a skepticism of government here in some factions, related to Second Amendment, where people feel it's insane to give control of guns to the government, which is then feared to abuse that imbalance. Someone made the "God and guns" joke, but it's only funny because it's also true. Even my non-conservative friends were shouting on FaceBook after the theater shooting, saying they were going to get concealed weapon licenses to carry so they could blast the crap out of anyone in the future who pulled a gun in a public place.

    I'm taking a long time to say it, but I think there's a quality to the American personality (as a country) that hates that kind of restriction and demands self-empowerment, and it makes it hard to make headway or find a better solution. Laws have to also be enforced and the behavior controlled, the law itself only allows people to be prosecuted for failing to follow the law. There could be restrictions on the flow of weapons, I guess; but then we get into parallels with the drug trade. it's just crazy. And the United States is also not uniform, so criticisms made of one segment are not applicable to others; and what works to control things in one area of the country might not work as well in others.


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  4. #94
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patches View Post
    Consider the same day in China, a man stabbed just as many children. We can't focus on gun control alone. To me that's like treating a symptom and ignoring the disease.

    I remain vehement that the bigger issue here - for this situation and several other types of crime - is that angsty teenager's and young adult's problems are dismissed and ignored.
    It may be the underlying cause, but it isn't the bigger issue imo. If you give two 5 year olds who hate one another handguns and one of them shoots the other, you could truthfully argue that the underlying cause was the poor conflict resolution skills they had, or whatever incited the hatred in the first place. The main point though would still be why the fuck did they have guns? A harmless squabble turns into a bloodbath.

    Every time there's a shooting like this the conversation seems to get steered towards mental health care, and I don't think that's a coincidence. I think mental health care is a conversation the NRA and assorted republicans would much rather have because it's easier to shoot down at their leisure. It's a much stronger position to argue against such changes from an anti-tax point of view than to argue against gun-control from a pro-hunting point of view.

    As for cultural differences, you may be right about eastern countries. There's still every other western nation to account for though.

  5. #95
    Klingon Warrior Princess Patches's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    Every time there's a shooting like this the conversation seems to get steered towards mental health care,
    I don't get that impression at all - especially not from American media sources. It always seems to be about gun control and video games. Rarely ever a discussion of mental health. Frustratingly so.
    “Everybody has a secret world inside of them. All of the people of the world, I mean everybody. No matter how dull and boring they are on the outside, inside
    them they've all got unimaginable, magnificent, wonderful, stupid, amazing worlds. Not just one world. Hundreds of them. Thousands maybe.” -Neil Gaiman

    ~

  6. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patches View Post
    I don't get that impression at all - especially not from American media sources. It always seems to be about gun control and video games. Rarely ever a discussion of mental health. Frustratingly so.
    I agree with you, it could be cultural malaise, although Mike Moore's attempt to raise awareness of that with bowling for columbine never got off the ground, but it could as easily be that each of the individuals in each of these cases were honest to goodness crackers and in need of attention which they never received.

    Although all I personally feel after something like this is sympathy with anyone who wants revenge on the perpetrators, its hard when they're dead already.

  7. #97
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    I'm not invested in gun control laws. A politician's stance on gun control laws does not influence my support for them one way or the other. But I have to say, if you want to make a good argument defending gun ownership, equivocating guns and knives is not the argument you're looking for.

    Why should anyone have a gun? For self-defense, or maybe hunting? Why should we make sure people can have guns a for self-defense and hunting when apparently a knife does the job just as well? It's very disingenuous to ignore the fact that guns were made and developed ever since to be better at killing things. That is the whole point.

    Common folk may kill the common folk, but they are much more capable of doing it with a gun. Imagine if we applied to the NRA logic at all times. It should mean that we can't keep anyone from possessing a flamethrower, a rocket launcher, or even a simple nuclear device.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  8. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I'm not invested in gun control laws. A politician's stance on gun control laws does not influence my support for them one way or the other. But I have to say, if you want to make a good argument defending gun ownership, equivocating guns and knives is not the argument you're looking for.

    Why should anyone have a gun? For self-defense, or maybe hunting? Why should we make sure people can have guns a for self-defense and hunting when apparently a knife does the job just as well? It's very disingenuous to ignore the fact that guns were made and developed ever since to be better at killing things. That is the whole point.

    Common folk may kill the common folk, but they are much more capable of doing it with a gun. Imagine if we applied to the NRA logic at all times. It should mean that we can't keep anyone from possessing a flamethrower, a rocket launcher, or even a simple nuclear device.
    I dont know about NRA logic but there are limits already which are acceptable to most gun owners and most people who support personal gun ownership wouldnt make absurd arguments about flamethrowers, rocket launchers and nuclear devices.

  9. #99
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I dont know about NRA logic but there are limits already which are acceptable to most gun owners and most people who support personal gun ownership wouldnt make absurd arguments about flamethrowers, rocket launchers and nuclear devices.
    But they automatically follow from the reasoning that guns shouldn't be singled out as opposed to, say, knives.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    But they automatically follow from the reasoning that guns shouldn't be singled out as opposed to, say, knives.
    So?

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