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  1. #21
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    Yes, damn it. Go nuts! I try to buy as much styrofoam as I can, personally. When I'm feeling stressed, I beat up the Lorax that I keep in my basement.
    Awesome! Since Jesus is coming back and the Bible deals with only this planet, does that mean that space exploration and colonization is pointless?
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  2. #22
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Awesome! Since Jesus is coming back and the Bible deals with only this planet, does that mean that space exploration and colonization is pointless?
    Oh heck no, I don't think exploration of anything is pointless. Especially Uranus.

  3. #23
    DoubleplusUngoodNonperson
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    careful, Kiddo might take you up on that!

  4. #24
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nozflubber View Post
    careful, Kiddo might take you up on that!
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Anywho...

    Society is structured into a small ruling class and a large poor class. This has been made possible because the ruling class gained control over the media via ownership and control of the government through lobbying and endorsing politicians. The ruling class has hijacked democracy by utilizing ownership of the media to manufacture consent among public opinion by inspiring fear in the public for the purpose of promoting the interest of "national defense". They have done so in order to build a large military industrial complex which is now utilized to obtain foreign resources through brute force and to subjugate any domestic dissenters. That is the current state of the United States, and why the elections truly don't matter.
    Alarmist maybe? But I am going to have to agree. Sound the damn alarm. Someone! And that military industrial complex is more of a beast than most Americans think.

    "In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the Military Industrial Complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist." - Dwight D. Eisenhower

    "The high office of President has been used to foment a plot to destroy the Americans' freedom, and before I leave office I must inform the citizen of his plight." -John F Kennedy

    "I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. As a result of the war, corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands, and the Republic is destroyed." - Abraham Lincoln

    Side note - Two of the above were assasinated co-inky-dink? I don't think so.

    And one to grow on..

    "For more than a century, ideological extremists at either end of the political spectrum have seized upon well-publicized incidents to attack the Rockefeller family for the inordinate influence they claim we wield over American political and economic institutions. Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as "internationalists" and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure - one world, if you will. If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it." -David Rockefeller
    Happy colored marbles that are rolling in my head..." - Ween

  6. #26
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    I think you've just answered your own question. If many countries are rearranging their policies around the US elections then they have a big impact even if the US President doesn't directly do anything to that country. It's something of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    Overall though I still don't understand your argument. To me it sounds like you are arguing against a straw man. "Everyone believes this, but I say they are wrong." Could you give me some examples of ways in which the US was so far ahead and now they are not? After you give those examples could you explain how these events came about completely independently from government involvement? If you can do that sufficiently, then I will buy your argument. If not, then I must assume you are arguing against a straw man.

    No I did not answer my question even if it looks that way (and I know how arrogant this sounds).
    Second thing I am not the only one who thinks that way. Outside of USA this is common way of thinking.

    In many small countries all around the world, political elites don't think they just set some political target and work in that direction. But they don't have many resources in any area. Also they have small chances to create good reputation for their country because they are insignificant as country.
    So many countries represent their agenda as a partner of USA to get good reputation and they hope so sell some of their products to markets in USA, what will then create the largest profit which you can get for that specific merchandise .
    After that companies from USA buy large pieces of that countries industry or army will build its base on the territory of that country.
    That will in many cases result whit satisfaction on all sides.
    But I don’t want to more details here.

    But now, when economy of USA is in bad shape elites don't change many policies because this was their only possible policy.(If you want very good results)
    In many countries average person does not now anything about geopolitics.
    And to them change of policy that worked so far is big mistake.
    Also political elites are afraid of losing elections.
    But problem is that America is no longer what it was. I am sorry, but that is how it looks from the outside.

    If i remember correctly.
    In military sense you were in much better situations in 1945 and 1990-2001.
    In last few years current military strength is pretty much the same but military strength of others is on the raise.

    In economic sense $ lost about 50% of its value next to my national currency.
    For example when euro was created it was a weaker then $ for some not too large amount 10-20%.
    Now it is 1.5$=1€. You don't have to be a genius to understand that this is not a good thing.
    Also your image as good and noble country is destroyed by that I mean completly destroyed.


    I cant say that government has nothing to do whit this.
    I am saying that government is political body which is just giving official approval but ideas are created elsewhere.
    For example there are thousands of lobbyist in Washington DC and they are going to spread same influence before and after this elections.
    Of course that this elections have some value but it is much less then people are willing to believe.

    I will repeat myself.
    Why this administration can't start recovery of economy so that next could just continue?
    After all that would help McCain a lot.


    From the start my point was that this administration created so many problems that next just can't solve them because USA is not only country which wants to control the world.
    And if they can' t solve problems then what is the point.

    I totally understand your skeptical approach.
    But In my own defense, in my original post there was section 3.
    In that section are my true arguments for my main claim.
    If you would like that I will be happy to post that arguments. But because that will be about 20 pages I will need few days.

  7. #27
    Member GruffyBear's Avatar
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    Electing a President is important in part because of how our system is changing in practice to be more executive focused. The President has a good bit of control of the day to day operations of the government (including the military). That affects everything from the spectacular (FEMA) to the prosaic (FMCSA) functioning of government. All the little and big catastrophes of the past few years are a good reason to hope for change. Of course neither Obama or McCain have ever RUN anything so that's a bit o' a leap of faith.

    On the flip side, unless you have a solid 60%+ of the Senate, a majority in the house, the Presidency, and a majority in the Supreme Court you are going to have a hard time doing anything radical. The Congress is tilted toward over-representing the small states with every state getting 2 Senators and at least one Congressman. The Supreme court usually takes quite some time (a decade or two) to turn over. Even the presidency has the electoral college mediating between the people and the position. Basically the political system is designed to be really hard to get anything substantial done. The good thing IMHO is nobody gets completely shut out, so they stay engaged. So our politics is less like Basketball and more like Hockey, a lot of fighting and wrangling and not a lot of scores. Perhaps that is why nobody else has chosen to set up a system like ours. I think it works for us given the diversity of our populations, geographies and economies.

    Myself I wonder if W isn't playing a version of Hillary's game, trying to sabotage McCain so that Jeb can run in 2012.

    As far as competing with everyone else I think it's more productive to worry about our own issues. Everybody has their own problems and opportunities. Russia is dying off even as the oil wealth rolls in (and their oil production peaks). The Chinese are trying to run as fast as they can to keep up with the population's expectations. India has horrible infrastructure issues. Chavez will probably be around for a good long time but the cracks are starting to appear in the Venezuelan economy as short sighted decisions come home to roost.

  8. #28
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Antisocial one, thank you for stating some of your points more specifically. Now I'd like to address some of the points that you made.

    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one
    If i remember correctly.
    In military sense you were in much better situations in 1945 and 1990-2001.
    In last few years current military strength is pretty much the same but military strength of others is on the raise.
    I think on this is one point that you are mistaken. You are right in that other countries have surpased the US in a variety of ways, but military is not one of them. The US easily has the most powerful military in the world. That may be all we really have, but we do have it. In fact most European countries have very little military compared to what they used to have. Even the navy of the UK is not what it used to be. Europe (and several non-European countries) for the most part relies on the US military to protect them, so they don't build large militaries themselves. Few people know this, but the tax rate in most European countries is about the same as the tax rate in the US, but Europeans usually get a lot more social benefits. In the US we get few social benefits and instead our tax dollars go toward policing the world. I'd personally rather get social benefits (or at least some lower taxes), but I guess there are Americans who enjoy the idea of being more powerful than everyone else which we clearly are. Whoever second place is military wise, they are not even close to the US.

    Now you have a point that the military will not change too much regardless of who is elected. McCain will want to keep us in Iraq and will probably use the military a bit more than Obama would. On the other hand I haven't seen Obama make any plans to reduce our military size. So when it comes to the issue of military, which is what most other countries should be most interested in, then it does not matter too much. Only someone like Ron Paul would really turn the international community on its head, since he wanted to close down most of the US military bases.

    In economic sense $ lost about 50% of its value next to my national currency.
    For example when euro was created it was a weaker then $ for some not too large amount 10-20%.
    Now it is 1.5$=1€. You don't have to be a genius to understand that this is not a good thing.
    Also your image as good and noble country is destroyed by that I mean completly destroyed.
    You make a good point here. The euro is a lot stronger than the dollar, although some of that has to do with how well the EU is doing economically right now. Still the US dollar is about even with the Canadian dollar right now (maybe a little less) while it used to be 1 US dollar = about 1.25 Canadian. This sort of thing shouldn't matter so much to foreign countries other than they should now buy more American products since they are so inexpensive.

    However as an American it matters a lot to me who is elected President. I blame our current administration for killing the value of the dollar. On the other hand during the Clinton years we had a very good economy: strong dollar, record low for unemployment, etc.... So to me as an American it matters a lot who is elected, because I'll be affected a lot more than someone of another country.
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  9. #29
    Senior Member millerm277's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    If i remember correctly.
    In military sense you were in much better situations in 1945 and 1990-2001.
    In last few years current military strength is pretty much the same but military strength of others is on the raise.
    Define military strength? People? That hasn't been anywhere near the most important factor since World War I. We certainly seem to be pretty far ahead otherwise. The only point where we may be weak that I can see is in the "cyber-warfare" area.

    In economic sense $ lost about 50% of its value next to my national currency.
    For example when euro was created it was a weaker then $ for some not too large amount 10-20%.
    Now it is 1.5$=1€. You don't have to be a genius to understand that this is not a good thing.
    That's true, but so far it hasn't really meant much to most of us here, other than that things in Canada are no longer significantly cheaper.

    Of course that this elections have some value but it is much less then people are willing to believe.
    The president sets direction for the country publicly, and privately. Like it or not, he does wield a large amount of power through vetoes and other means.

    Why this administration can't start recovery of economy so that next could just continue?
    To be honest, I don't know how it looks from the outside, but I haven't seen much by way of major problems with the economy, other than the cost of food/gas, but that's an issue worldwide, and so far...hasn't done much except get americans to stop/slow down their buying of huge SUV's.
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  10. #30
    Junior Member Otsoga's Avatar
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    They are not totally pointless, since there are some important differences between Democrats and Republicans. The problem is that for a candidate to have a chance to win the election, she or he has to become beholden to corporate interests. The corporations own the most powerful politcians. The corporate agenda takes precedence over the will of the people.

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