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Thread: The Collapse of The American Dream Explained in Animation, about capitalism

  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I dont see people refusing to work at present and none of those incentives exist in anything other than fantasy right now.
    Ill admit it could be a lot better but I don't think the idea of this thread is the answer
    "May you live all the days of your life"

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by bedeviled1 View Post
    Ill admit it could be a lot better but I don't think the idea of this thread is the answer
    The idea, if there is one, is vague and just amounts to moralising about greed pretty much.

    I think capitalism needs to be rethought altogether and something else take its place. I've no problem of what you said about incentives, I dont think that capitalism can or does supply what you're talking about though.

  3. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    The idea, if there is one, is vague and just amounts to moralising about greed pretty much.

    I think capitalism needs to be rethought altogether and something else take its place. I've no problem of what you said about incentives, I dont think that capitalism can or does supply what you're talking about though.
    But until that time(if it ever came) what's better now. Surely there is more incentives to be productive and creative in capitalism than the alternatives at present.
    "May you live all the days of your life"

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by bedeviled1 View Post
    But until that time(if it ever came) what's better now. Surely there is more incentives to be productive and creative in capitalism than the alternatives at present.
    Capitalism which you're talking about is imaginary, I'd say it always was just a pretty idea, although its earliest theorists are more excuseable for thinking so than its later ones, what you have are economies globally which differ only in degree which are like a rigged game serving the richest and screwing everyone else.

    There are less people working and enjoying actual existing capitalism than being compelled and coerced by it, which makes it popular with people too.

    Although I like what you bring to the conversation, pretty grounded in the here and now and actuality bit different than the more run of the mill libertarians.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post


    great video that everyone should watch imo. however i dont think this is just about the "american dream", but concerns people all over the world. this is exactly how the hell on earth is created, its the shadow of the american dream that few people know how to control and feed off the imbalance created by the greed of the people and offered by private banks. this is what capitalism allows the ones with most cash to do and exactly the reason why capitalism doesent work(except for the ones in power) and why all people in support of capitalism are either dumb as fuck or pure evil.
    I must be dumb as fuck and pure evil...I would rather live in Switzerland, or even USA, or even a shitty capitalist country like Paraguay, than North Korea or Cuba.

    You call it hell on earth...lol...relative to what? Our ancestors could never have dreamed of living as well as we do now. In developing countries, hundreds of millions of people have joined the middle class in the past few decades.

    Our "problems" come from TOO MUCH success. Capitalism is so successful in lifting people out of poverty, that there are resource problems as Chinese, Brazilians, Indians, want more meat, more cars, better clothes.

    But human resourcefulness can overcome these challenges through genetic engineering, bio-technologies, even through mining other planets.

    Place your trust in Freedom.

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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Maybe we should go back to having tribes, or kings and queens or feudalism or something like that. There is always a caste system too.

    I still maintain that it's corporations that are the problem. It's an invented construct that is very recent.
    Corporations built the house you live in, the car you drive, and the computer you wrote this on.

    Small "independent" businesses are not really capable of sustaining such advanced production. Multinational companies = economies of scale = mass production = cheap and plentiful goods.

    I am reminded of the South Park episode where they campaign against Starbucks.

  7. #67
    Whisky Old & Women Young Array Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Che Parla View Post
    Corporations built the house you live in, the car you drive, and the computer you wrote this on.

    Small "independent" businesses are not really capable of sustaining such advanced production. Multinational companies = economies of scale = mass production = cheap and plentiful goods.
    True. And there's no reason to lust against that. But there's some legal advantage and the pervasive influence of corporation lobby which should better be avoided.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    True. And there's no reason to lust against that. But there's some legal advantage and the pervasive influence of corporation lobby which should better be avoided.
    There should be a legal equal playing field and transparency in government contracts, I agree.

    Personally I hated working for a corporation and prefer working at a start-up. so I have no bias in favour of them, but it's each to their own, I recognize they exist for a reason.

  9. #69
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    I would argue that nothing has hindered our ability to compete internationally as much as our overly complex legal structure, also known as our bureaucratic waste.

    To expound on my point here's David Frum discussing one of my very favorite subjects:

    America's Kludgeocracy Democracy

    Here's the most important article you'll read today, Steve Teles' Kludgeocracy: The American Way of Policy

    Teles' point: the United States runs a uniquely complex, dysfunctional, and disappointing government. Americans may flatter themselves that they are governed more lightly than other advanced countries. But kludgeocracy condemns them to pay much more for the government they do get.

    Teles:

    The dictionary tells us that a kludge is “an ill-assorted collection of parts assembled to fulfill a particular purpose…a clumsy but temporarily effective solution to a particular fault or problem.” The term comes out of the world of computer programming, where a kludge is an inelegant patch put in place to be backward compatible with the rest of a system. When you add up enough kludges, you get a very complicated program, one that is hard to understand and subject to crashes. In other words, Windows.

    “Clumsy but temporarily effective” also describes much of American public policy. For any particular problem we have arrived at the most gerry-rigged, opaque and complicated response. From the mind-numbing complexity of the health care system (which has only gotten more complicated, if also more just, after the passage of Obamacare), our Byzantine system of funding higher education, and our bewildering federal-state system of governing everything from the welfare state to environmental regulation, America has chosen more indirect and incoherent policy mechanisms than any comparable country.
    Teles argues: Americans do this on purpose.

    American political culture and ideology have also, in sometimes obscure ways, contributed to kludgeocracy. One of the strongest findings in the study of American public opinion is that Americans are ideological conservatives and operational liberals. That is, they want to believe in the myth of small government while making demands on government to address pressing public problems, including poverty, retirement security, environmental protection and social mobility.

    This ambivalence in public opinion creates a durable bias in the actual outputs of American government. The easiest way to satisfy both halves of the American political mind is to create programs that hide the hand of government, whether it is through tax preferences, regulation or litigation, rather than through the more transparent means of direct taxing and spending.
    Once you start thinking this way, it's hard to stop.

    Cap-and-trade is much kludgier than carbon taxes; subsidies to wind and solar are kludgier than cap and trade. Guess which path the U.S. is following?

    Many European countries offer some form of mother's allowance. The United States instead offers a $1000 per child tax credit that is creditable only against income tax, not against the payroll tax that falls more heavily on working Americans. Kludgey!

    What could be more kludgey than the American voting system, an intricate mess of laws and lawsuits that takes weeks to produce a final vote tally and leaves all parties suspicious of widespread vote fraud/vote suppression by the other?

    Governments profess a wish to stop illegal immigration - but refuse the basic employment-verification measures that would do the job, instead spending billions on a border fence that ignores such realities as air travel.

    "For forms of government let fools contend, whatever is best administered is best." By that measure, the US government does not score very highly.

    Teles' essay is important - even if its own argument explains why its powerful message is likely to go unheeded. Kludge did not arise by accident, and it will take something more than mere disapproval to reduce and replace it.
    The article David quotes from is excellent, but I thought at 11 pages it was a little long to post here.
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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Che Parla View Post
    Corporations built the house you live in, the car you drive, and the computer you wrote this on.

    Small "independent" businesses are not really capable of sustaining such advanced production. Multinational companies = economies of scale = mass production = cheap and plentiful goods.

    I am reminded of the South Park episode where they campaign against Starbucks.
    No, PEOPLE built the house you live in.
    People, with machines, built the car you've driven.
    People, with machines, built the computer you use.

    Production comes from PEOPLE, not corporations. And the difference between the people in these types of businesses are the amount of people.

    This thing about corporations building anything has got to go. Corporations are not people, it is an idea.

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