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  1. #51
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    No, you see this is where you're mistaken, because someone disagrees with you and whups you in a discussion in a way you dont even begin to approach an understanding of doesn not mean they "seem even worse".
    I did not say that you were even worse because you disagree with me, but because you have no knowledge to bring.

    Capitalism isnt a cultural phenomenon, culture is important to it emerging or remaining, or havent you heard of the Weber's The Protestant Ethic and The Spirit of Capitalism
    I had. But the theory of that book is criticized and probably wrong. Culture is important, yes, but the capitalism culture is not related to the anglo-saxon or protestant culture specifically. It is related to any culture which benefit of a large freedom.

    The idea about capitalism spontaneously springing up is ahistorical BS which not even any of the major capitalists theorists are too keen on. I'm sure the tea party will get the memo eventually.
    That's the facts: capitalism spring up in every environment where private property of means of production is allowed.
    EsTP 6w7 Sx/Sp

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    "I don't believe in guilt, I only believe in living on impulses"

    "Stereotypes about personality and gender turn out to be fairly accurate: ... On the binary Myers-Briggs measure, the thinking-feeling breakdown is about 30/70 for women versus 60/40 for men." ~ Bryan Caplan

  2. #52
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    I'd suck at being a socialist... I'm one of those people who will happily pay someone extra to do what I want them to do when I want for them to do it, and I've always been good at selling skills freelance (not that kind... I translate and used to yell at people...)... in fact I'm pretty good at selling just about anything...

    there is a difference though between thinking that a system is perfect and realizing that it has flaws though... I'm not one to support a regression to the working conditions of The Jungle or lack of medicare and I can't say that I can even remotely support the idea that principles such as justice should be for sale... some things are priceless and justice is one of those things

    just because you can't see that there's a middle ground between being hard core laissez faire and being socialist doesn't mean that it doesn't exist... the world is not black and white, whippersnapper... the more you experience it the more you realize that point

    which is why it's pointless to argue with you- have a nice day
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  3. #53
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    What's about what now?

    You're blaming the mixed economy? Laissez-faire disappeared for a reason and it wasnt commies or conspiracies.
    Oh why do people keep talking about conspiracies as if they don't exist? There was a conspiracy a few days ago that I happened to walk upon: three neighbors were conspiring to put a poster of "1D"(a boy band?) on a fourth neighbors door. Humans conspire, it's natural and happens in many places, whether it's a practical joke conspiracy or in high levels of government or in boardrooms or around the office water cooler or the school yard. Did George Bush command a conspiracy to bring down the world trade center buildings? No, there's no solid evidence that this is a real conspiracy. Was there a conspiracy to cover-up Watergate involving Nixon and Co? Yes, it's a matter of historical record that U.S. Presidents can be at the center of conspiracies. There are enough conspiracies recorded in history that it's fucking ridiculous when people claim that conspiracies in government don't exist, as if people in the past 30 years have lost the ability to conspire, or have somehow become more moral.
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


  4. #54
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEGERdeMAIN View Post
    Oh why do people keep talking about conspiracies as if they don't exist? There was a conspiracy a few days ago that I happened to walk upon: three neighbors were conspiring to put a poster of "1D"(a boy band?) on a fourth neighbors door. Humans conspire, it's natural and happens in many places, whether it's a practical joke conspiracy or in high levels of government or in boardrooms or around the office water cooler or the school yard. Did George Bush command a conspiracy to bring down the world trade center buildings? No, there's no solid evidence that this is a real conspiracy. Was there a conspiracy to cover-up Watergate involving Nixon and Co? Yes, it's a matter of historical record that U.S. Presidents can be at the center of conspiracies. There are enough conspiracies recorded in history that it's fucking ridiculous when people claim that conspiracies in government don't exist, as if people in the past 30 years have lost the ability to conspire, or have somehow become more moral.
    There's a difference between conspiracies and politics or conspiracy theories and institutional theories or economic theories or even, you know, reality vs. beautiful theories.

  5. #55
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    I'd suck at being a socialist... I'm one of those people who will happily pay someone extra to do what I want them to do when I want for them to do it, and I've always been good at selling skills freelance (not that kind... I translate and used to yell at people...)... in fact I'm pretty good at selling just about anything...

    there is a difference though between thinking that a system is perfect and realizing that it has flaws though... I'm not one to support a regression to the working conditions of The Jungle or lack of medicare and I can't say that I can even remotely support the idea that principles such as justice should be for sale... some things are priceless and justice is one of those things

    just because you can't see that there's a middle ground between being hard core laissez faire and being socialist doesn't mean that it doesn't exist... the world is not black and white, whippersnapper... the more you experience it the more you realize that point

    There's of course differents degree of socialism, I never said the contrary. But it is always a bad thing. In fact, each time we analyze it, we can see the bad consequences. And the american dream collapse because of this interventionism. If interventionism had never happened, the collapse would have never happened either.
    EsTP 6w7 Sx/Sp

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    "I don't believe in guilt, I only believe in living on impulses"

    "Stereotypes about personality and gender turn out to be fairly accurate: ... On the binary Myers-Briggs measure, the thinking-feeling breakdown is about 30/70 for women versus 60/40 for men." ~ Bryan Caplan

  6. #56
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    There's of course differents degree of socialism, I never said the contrary. But it is always a bad thing. In fact, each time we analyze it, we can see the bad consequences. And the american dream collapse because of this interventionism. If interventionism had never happened, the collapse would have never happened either.
    What was the American dream? How did it collapse? What are you talking about?

  7. #57
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    What was the American dream? How did it collapse? What are you talking about?
    See the opeining post.
    EsTP 6w7 Sx/Sp

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    "I don't believe in guilt, I only believe in living on impulses"

    "Stereotypes about personality and gender turn out to be fairly accurate: ... On the binary Myers-Briggs measure, the thinking-feeling breakdown is about 30/70 for women versus 60/40 for men." ~ Bryan Caplan

  8. #58
    Senior Member bedeviled1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    "its the excessive power of capital"

    "how is it that money got in the right place at the right time? well that takes financial innovations. financial innovations has the effect of empowering financiers"

    exactly.

    when i was watching this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRMWcsqnsmY few days ago i noticed something that makes a really big difference in the economy of finland vs some other countries like usa. some teens were asked what they want when they grow up and there was some discussion about the importance of money. well, the majority thought that money was not all that important, as long as you have enough to live comfortably and most of the people in finland do(even those who doesent have a job, as long as they dont have a car or other extra stuff like that, which you dont really need due to good public transportation, which btw makes less pollutions also that everyone owning a car), no matter what job they do. more important was job that you enjoy(regardless of how much it pays, since it pays enough in most cases) than the money that it offers.

    soooo, creating a society where money is more balanced amongst people(rich people arent millionaires and poor people arent really all that poor), while teaching kids to be healthy when it comes to greed seems to be the way to go. capitalism is pretty much the antithesis of this.

    i think you need to think outside of the box and look at whole alternative societies instead of looking at how to get the defected model to work slightly better.

    and i dont disagree that there isnt some trend of people being greedy in finland, but the major influence in that is the "american dream" that tv keeps pushing to everyone, influences of the internet and right wing politics who try to push the capitalist agenda.
    "... creating a society where money is more balanced." Would have nothing to do with how hard you worked or how creative you are or how much drive you have or how gifted you are? All these are things that SHOULD BE rewarded. Where is the incentive to do anything?
    Sounds like a bunch of livestock to me.
    "May you live all the days of your life"

  9. #59
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    See the opeining post.
    I dont believe you're talking about the same thing, at least you define it differently from the OP, in so far as you do bother to try and firm up with something definite.

  10. #60
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bedeviled1 View Post
    "... creating a society where money is more balanced." Would have nothing to do with how hard you worked or how creative you are or how much drive you have or how gifted you are? All these are things that SHOULD BE rewarded. Where is the incentive to do anything?
    Sounds like a bunch of livestock to me.
    I dont see people refusing to work at present and none of those incentives exist in anything other than fantasy right now.

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