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View Poll Results: Gay Marriage - Yes or no?

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  • Yes

    67 93.06%
  • No

    7 9.72%
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  1. #121
    Gone Aesthete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Agreed, in that it's a character or promiscuity issue unrelated to preference. Some people are ready to be good parents and/or have an aptitude for it, and some do not -- straight or otherwise.

    I mean, I've been out in urban areas on a Saturday night. Yeah, two guys in their underwear on a gay parade float is awkward; but in comparison, it's not a lot different than the 20-something meat market and the kind of crazy outfits I've seen perfectly straight girls wear while fishing for men, etc. In fact, there are many more het people out there behaving in crazy public fashion simply by force of numbers.
    Yeah; I'm afraid that the vast majority of people aren't fit for the "job". Not that the vast majority of people are a bunch of tyrants, but they all seem to have some important fault in the way they raise their children. If you give them everything they want, you spoil them. If you give them something when they do something good, they begin valuing the good rather than the action, such that they won't do something good unless they know they're getting something back. Breaking the will of your child by saying "This is my room, you do what I say" is bad as well, as maybe what you do is wrong; later on, they'll begin to think similarly of all authority, be it good or bad. Beating them...well, that's even worse. Most parents seem to make these mistakes on a regular basis.
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  2. #122
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    Incidentally, the law did respond to the ban on interracial marriages in the South. In the Loving v. Virginia case, SCOTUS ruled Virginia's anti-miscegenation law was in violation of the Due Process Clause and the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment.

    It's just a matter of time before the Court rules the prohibition against gay marriage to be equally retarded. Hurray for progress!
    I know about how the law responded to the legal ban on interracial marriage, and indeed, hurray. But I still don't know how the law responded to *churches* who might refuse to marry an interracial couple, or how the law would respond today. I suspect it still happens. I know it would have happened in the church where I grew up. In fact, I can't imagine a black person ever setting foot in there. It was not a friendly place. Harrowing experience that was- four times a week for years of my childhood.

  3. #123
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    Gay marriage is not prohbited. That's a lie.

    Actually nobody forbid gays to have a party where they wearr a whire dress, and call that a marriage.

    So, the true question is "should the state create a statist form of gay marriage?"; and of course the answer is no.
    Why not. They form a stable unit, so they should be entitled to the tax advantages.
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  4. #124
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post
    I believe the assessment of such things is personal opinion, and as such, I cannot.


    Other than say yours, Lark's, and @Beorn's is inadequate for present and future societies.
    There's noting in present and future societies which differs fundamentally from past societies, and legitimize that sort of constructivism.
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  5. #125
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Why not. They form a stable unit, so they should be entitled to the tax advantages.
    I don't see why a stable unit should benefit of more advantages than the not stable ones. People who are in gay couples are responsible for their lifestyle, and free to chose it, but it must not be deliberately encouraged by the State in order to satisfy an ideology or a lobby;. That's where the constructivism start and the libertarianism end.
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  6. #126
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    I don't see why a stable unit should benefit of more advantages than the not stable ones.
    I don't mean to say that I agree with the reasoning (I absolutely do not) but: a stable union is more likely to buy a house, or generally invest together a bigger sum of money, which indirectly benefits the state through taxes and further economic advantages due to a bigger general population (someone who buys a house somewhere isn't likely to move to another region or nation). That is mainly the point of advantageous taxation for either married or long-term couples (union de fait).
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  7. #127
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DisneyGeek View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't marriage predate Christianity? Or at least, wasn't it once a very secular thing?
    I am not sure most governments have ever separated secular from sacred much before modern times. Obviously marriage predates Christianity.

    But I'm using 'church' loosely and ethnocentrically here as a kind of common shorthand used in the U.S. historically not literally referring to Christianity exclusively. 'Separation of church and state' likely didn't refer only to Christianity when the phrase was first used. The founding fathers were aware of Islam and Judaism at the very least.

    Religious or philosophical or other organization, etc would be more accurate. Sorry for not being clear.
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  8. #128
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Sure it's your choice to have jr. and his sister in your house, but what if they don't like each other? You'd be a hypocrite to tell them they have to love each other or owe any duty to each other beyond civility. As soon as they reach a certain age they can love whoever they want and forget about their parents, siblings, or whoever. It's their life and they are free and limitless in how they choose to live.
    Where do you derive these duties from?

  9. #129
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanton Moore View Post
    there was a time when a white person couldn't marry a black person. There were lots of criticism from the right about how this undermined social stability, about how it was a 'slippery slope', etc; sensible arguments from sensible people...
    That was less than 50 years ago...
    I expect that in less-than 50 years, gay marriage will be acceptable too.
    Why? What do sexual orientation and race possibly have in common?
    Bigotry, mostly. Can we just accept that, and move on with the inevitable?
    Well, religious people who are against same-sex marriage still believe the two are different. Race, to them, is unquestionably genetics; meanwhile, same-sex orientation is seen as either originating from a choice OR to be something wrong (as it's a behavior) that people should choose against regardless of their feelings.

    I would actually compare the church's reaction more to how it has traditionally approached psychiatric issues, which have behavioral components. For example, I have a friend who was diagnosed with bipolar later in life -- it ran in his family, but finally appeared in him after he had been through periods of prolonged stress -- and it was difficult for some people in the church not to judge him. (After all, if he had been more trusting in God and had just tried harder and really loved his family, then he wouldn't be behaving the way he was -- at least in their line of thinking.)

    I think if people truly see orientation like race -- just part of genetic or development diversity -- then they're a lot more accepting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aesthete View Post
    Yeah; I'm afraid that the vast majority of people aren't fit for the "job". Not that the vast majority of people are a bunch of tyrants, but they all seem to have some important fault in the way they raise their children. If you give them everything they want, you spoil them. If you give them something when they do something good, they begin valuing the good rather than the action, such that they won't do something good unless they know they're getting something back. Breaking the will of your child by saying "This is my room, you do what I say" is bad as well, as maybe what you do is wrong; later on, they'll begin to think similarly of all authority, be it good or bad. Beating them...well, that's even worse. Most parents seem to make these mistakes on a regular basis.
    I don't think parenting's easy at all.

    I consider myself to have had my heart in the right place and a good head, and I'm still embarrassed by the mistakes I made. The damage done to a kid by a parent is typically just a matter of degree, not whether it happens or not. But good parents empower their kids despite any screwups.

    I think good parenting means trying hard to put your kid's welfare above your own LONG-TERM, if the two come into conflict; and also not putting yourself on a pedestal, always being able to reconsider your own behavior and see if you need to change something. Kind of like being the kind of change you might want to see in your kids.

    A lot of the kids in their 20's aren't yet ready to be parents. They're still self-focused nowadays. I think western culture permits that more than it used to.

    I like to drag movies into things -- reminds me of the mom in Looper, who admitted she was a terrible mom and had dumped her kid off on her sister because she was self-indulgent at the time... but then she got her act together and started making the hard choices and putting her kid first. Not in continually gratifying him (which isn't really serving your kid) but just in thinking abou the long-term impact of parenting him and then doing things that served that goal.

    This is something both mature gay and mature straight people can do.
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  10. #130
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Lmao religious people. I don't get why this culture still exist in the mid-USA, it's as if I were speaking to my grand-grand-mother about sex and black people and marriage and she would be looking at me as if I were a crazy demon. /troll
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