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  1. #81
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    I think socialism would be a good idea.

  2. #82
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bedeviled1 View Post
    I agree 100%
    Well, I'm glad that at least someone agrees with me.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I think socialism would be a good idea.
    Yeah, losing all of my freedoms that I currently have is definitely the way to go.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    Yeah, losing all of my freedoms that I currently have is definitely the way to go.
    No, I said socialism would be a good idea, not losing all your freedoms.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    No, I said socialism would be a good idea, not losing all your freedoms.
    Well, the socialism that Karl Marx envisioned looked pretty good, but I've never seen it work with a country. Most socialistic countries just wind up taking away the citizens free rights, and I'm against that.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    Well, the socialism that Karl Marx envisioned looked pretty good, but I've never seen it work with a country. Most socialistic countries just wind up taking away the citizens free rights, and I'm against that.
    Betrayals of socialism.

    Elites will use the promise of either socialism or capitalism, if they are popular, to rob people and exploit them. Socialism proper shouldnt permit that. I like Robert Owen, not Karl Marx though.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Betrayals of socialism.

    Elites will use the promise of either socialism or capitalism, if they are popular, to rob people and exploit them. Socialism proper shouldnt permit that. I like Robert Owen, not Karl Marx though.
    I know nothing about Robert Owen. Describe to me what his socialistic visions are, and what type of society he would view as ideal.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    I know nothing about Robert Owen. Describe to me what his socialistic visions are, and what type of society he would view as ideal.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Owen

    In fairness Owen was not as much of a blue print socialist as this article suggests since he engaged in not only philanthropy and intentional community organising but also trades unions organising, co-operative banking and mutual banks, which are probably known as credit unions or micro-finance these days.

    Marx used to take the micky out of Owen and others like him for trying all kinds of reforms or efforts to change things presently instead of placing their hopes in political struggles or revolutionary uprisings exclusively, Engels was almost an Owenite before meeting Marx, owning a factory himself, and I think anyone reading his writing after Marx, particularly some of the stuff Engels wrote about militarism and the prospects for insurrection or street fighting after the armed forces really began to out pace the capacity of volunteer corps, would consider that he reverted to that thinking.

    I dont believe that the wiki puts it correctly when it suggests that Owen didnt believe people were responsible for their own actions, that's a little bit of an absurdist or reductivist portrayal of his idea but the social character idea that underpins it is similar to that which sociologists and social psychologists have come up with since. His point though was that reformers for the relief of poverty were not likely to be from those quarters most effected by poverty, I'm inclined to agree upon that point for a variety of reasons.

    Owen and others like him didnt see the state as a means for introducing or furthering the goals of socialism, in no small part because they didnt see it as feasible in the least at a time when liberals could hardly get a mandate and there wasnt any universal or womans sufferage.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Owen

    In fairness Owen was not as much of a blue print socialist as this article suggests since he engaged in not only philanthropy and intentional community organising but also trades unions organising, co-operative banking and mutual banks, which are probably known as credit unions or micro-finance these days.

    Marx used to take the micky out of Owen and others like him for trying all kinds of reforms or efforts to change things presently instead of placing their hopes in political struggles or revolutionary uprisings exclusively, Engels was almost an Owenite before meeting Marx, owning a factory himself, and I think anyone reading his writing after Marx, particularly some of the stuff Engels wrote about militarism and the prospects for insurrection or street fighting after the armed forces really began to out pace the capacity of volunteer corps, would consider that he reverted to that thinking.

    I dont believe that the wiki puts it correctly when it suggests that Owen didnt believe people were responsible for their own actions, that's a little bit of an absurdist or reductivist portrayal of his idea but the social character idea that underpins it is similar to that which sociologists and social psychologists have come up with since. His point though was that reformers for the relief of poverty were not likely to be from those quarters most effected by poverty, I'm inclined to agree upon that point for a variety of reasons.

    Owen and others like him didnt see the state as a means for introducing or furthering the goals of socialism, in no small part because they didnt see it as feasible in the least at a time when liberals could hardly get a mandate and there wasnt any universal or womans sufferage.
    I don't have time right now, but I will read up on this later and get back to you on this one.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    I don't have time right now, but I will read up on this later and get back to you on this one.
    You dont need to get back to me, I just provided it because you asked.

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