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  1. #51
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I havent skirted the issue at all, if you would like a spreadsheet with information upon what precise variations in taxation I would propose, I'm sorry, I dont think that's a sincere request.
    Here is the actual discussion, repeated for you. Considering how much more I invested in thinking things through, why wouldn't it be a sincere request?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer
    Well, we need to preserve our humanity, and people of all ages are still people.
    It's just a real humdinger of a problem to resolve... which is why it is still a problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lark
    I dont think its difficult, tax the rich, its not complex even but it'd take will and a popular support that's not there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I meant it was difficult to agree on an actual plan with details.

    I don't consider "tax the rich" to be a plan; that's merely a concept that anyone on a web forum can toss out and I'm sure any of us in the thread had it cross our minds. I mean, we're already discussing "taxing the rich" just to fix the imbalance in the budget, not specifically Social Security; and Congress can't agree.

    To actually come up with the details (how much to tax, who is considered rich, time frame on taxing, how that money will be monitored and "go to the right place," and so many other items necessary to implement the idea) and present them to be ratified is an actual plan.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm not buying that to be honest, complexity has been an argument against proper taxation and spending for too long.
    "Tax the rich," is one solution among many. One can also re-allocate resources. Perhaps there are other directions that can be brainstormed in five minutes; it's not hard.

    Sounds like your only real investment here has been the assumption, "People don't actually want to do it, or it would be fixed by now."

    Not exactly. To make a comparison, maybe like in the movie "Titanic," people don't realize the boat is actually sinking yet, so people have just been biding their time; but hopefully it's become more and more obvious in the last few years; and at some point, you do what you have to do to plug the leaks, once you realize you're going under, when hell breaks loose. The survival instinct motivates people like nothing else.

    There are also people who need to see details before they can get a sense of a plan, and otherwise they'll stonewall. So you have to make a test case of some sort.

    As a side note, I didn't ask Cafe for a spreadsheet and she actually engaged the issue with some ideas. It wasn't much to ask.

    All you had to say was, "I'm just shooting off the cuff, don't mind me," and I would have happily moved along.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Here is the actual discussion, repeated for you. Considering how much more I invested in thinking things through, why wouldn't it be a sincere request?









    "Tax the rich," is one solution among many. One can also re-allocate resources. Perhaps there are other directions that can be brainstormed in five minutes; it's not hard.

    Sounds like your only real investment here has been the assumption, "People don't actually want to do it, or it would be fixed by now."

    Not exactly. To make a comparison, maybe like in the movie "Titanic," people don't realize the boat is actually sinking yet, so people have just been biding their time; but hopefully it's become more and more obvious in the last few years; and at some point, you do what you have to do to plug the leaks, once you realize you're going under, when hell breaks loose. The survival instinct motivates people like nothing else.

    There are also people who need to see details before they can get a sense of a plan, and otherwise they'll stonewall. So you have to make a test case of some sort.

    As a side note, I didn't ask Cafe for a spreadsheet and she actually engaged the issue with some ideas. It wasn't much to ask.

    All you had to say was, "I'm just shooting off the cuff, don't mind me," and I would have happily moved along.
    Yeah, I figured you'd post something like this Jennifer.

    I dont see any value in discussing any topics with you anymore. Good luck.

  3. #53
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    socialism is an attitude. Like the american dream

    This an attitude as well: http://www.sanger.dk/
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  4. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    socialism is an attitude. Like the american dream

    This an attitude as well: http://www.sanger.dk/
    Dont understand your point. Still waiting to see what the American dream is.

  5. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    socialism is an attitude. Like the american dream

    This an attitude as well: http://www.sanger.dk/
    Dont understand your point. Still waiting to see what the American dream is.

  6. #56
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Dont understand your point. Still waiting to see what the American dream is.
    Which means you ignored the Lickmops ?!
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  7. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    Which means you ignored the Lickmops ?!
    I've no idea what you're on about.

  8. #58
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bedeviled1 View Post
    It seems obvious to me that the good old USA is in a transition period.
    Everything, everywhere is always in a transitionary period, because the only constant is change.
    YOUR FAIL = 1

    Quote Originally Posted by bedeviled1 View Post
    The American dream is sadly becoming less of a reality being replaced with rewards for being lazy in exchange for less and less liberty (freedom) which some would unwittingly exchange for support for their beliefs.
    The title of this thread is "MEDICARE and SOCIALISM" yet above you are stating your contempt for lazy people = YOU ARE CONFUSED and IGNORANT.
    MEDICARE is publicly FUNDED (I capitalized "funded" for a reason, which we'll get back to in a subsequent lesson, be patient please) health insurance for SENIOR CITIZENS.
    It's obvious you don't know what Medicare is, so let's educate you now:

    "Medicare is the federal health insurance program for people who are 65 or older, certain younger people with disabilities, and people with End-Stage Renal Disease (permanent kidney failure requiring dialysis or a transplant, sometimes called ESRD)."

    FROM: http://www.medicare.gov/sign-up-chan...-medicare.html

    So, are the ELDERLY and people with DISABILITIES "lazy" in your opinion?
    If so then your views are shallow and conceited.

    In order for you to be able to make less foolish posts in the future, I'll now inform you about a different public health care program: MEDICAID.

    "A state and federal partnership, Medicaid provides coverage for people with lower incomes, older people, people with disabilities, and some families and children."
    AND...
    "Each state operates a Medicaid program that provides health coverage for lower-income people, families and children, the elderly, and people with disabilities."
    FROM: http://www.healthcare.gov/using-insu...care/medicaid/

    I'll even break apart the definition's eligibility groups to further enlighten you:

    (1) lower-income people, = "Many states have expanded coverage, particularly for children, above the federal minimums. For many eligibility groups, income is calculated in relation to a percentage of the Federal Poverty Level (FPL). For example, 100% of the FPL for a family of four is $22,350 in 2011. The Federal Poverty Level is updated annually."
    FROM: http://www.medicaid.gov/Medicaid-CHI...igibility.html

    (2) families and children, = TANF (Temporary Assistance for Needy Families) is a comprehensive social welfare program, of which one benefit is public health care. Details for the State of Florida are below:
    "Florida TANF Progam Assistance Overview:
    TANF was created to help families in need. The TANF bureau works with families to help them become self sufficient.
    TANF's program features include:
    1. Assisting needy families so that children can be cared for in their own homes.
    2. Preventative measures for out of wedlock pregnancy.
    3. The encouragement of two parent families.
    4. Reduction of the dependency of needy parents by assisting with job preparation."

    FROM: http://www.tanf.us/florida.html

    (3) the elderly, = MEDICARE does not cover (long term care) NURSING HOME fees, it only covers nursing home fees that result from rehabilitation time (post-discharge) after a hospitalization/surgery. Nursing home care for one month in the State of Florida averages $7,786.66 per month depending on geographic location of a facility, which reflects the variance of cost of living expenditures in urban vs. rural areas.
    FROM: http://www.fhca.org/media_center/lon...th_care_facts/

    (4) people with disabilities = "For other groups, income standards are based on income or other non-financial criteria standards for other programs, such as the Supplemental Security Income (SSI) program."
    FROM: http://www.medicaid.gov/Medicaid-CHI...igibility.html

    It would be wise of you to know what your are griping about before you shoot your mouth off, seriously.
    YOUR FAIL = 2

    Quote Originally Posted by bedeviled1 View Post
    The proposal to raise the age requirement for Medicare from 65 to 67 is a continuation of the undermining of the work ethic in this country.
    Your argument above is baseless.
    Read something factual for a change:

    "When economists and policymakers worry about the long-term fiscal crisis, what they’re mostly worried about is Medicare. That’s why a persistent idea during this fiscal cliff season is raising the Medicare eligibility age from 65 to 67.

    It’s an idea that appears superficially to have many virtues. Bringing the Medicare retirement age into line with the Social Security retirement age seems logical. The change is simple to describe to journalists and the public. And agreeing to reduce spending by keeping the program the same but limiting eligibility for it allows Democrats and Republicans to come together without resolving their fundamental disagreement over what Medicare should look like. As far as big picture entitlement reform goes, in other words, it’s relatively simple, straightforward, and easy to accomplish.

    Unfortunately it’s also a terrible idea that cloaks a staggering giveaway to hospitals, doctors, and other health care providers.

    There are two separate fiscal issues around the government and health care spending. One is the scope of the government’s responsibility for footing the bill for health care financing. The other is the price the government has to pay for the health care services it’s responsible for financing. Conservatives often imply that government health care spending is expensive because the government is somehow purchasing inefficiently or offering bloated benefits. This fits well with stereotypes about public sector waste and thus plays to popular prejudice. But it ignores the big reality about government health care purchases, which is their enormous scale. Medicare, in particular, is the biggest bulk buyer of health care services in the country, and so the fees it offers health care providers are much lower than what normal insurance companies pay.

    Why do providers put up with those stingy payments? For the same reason any vendor offers discounts to any bulk purchaser: volume. In big, rich cities, it’s not all that unusual for some providers to eschew Medicare patients and simply fill their dockets with better-paying private customers. But the vast majority of doctors, hospitals, imaging centers, and other providers need those patients. There are a lot of old people in America, and old people consume a lot of health care services. So when Medicare offers the health care industry a low-margin payment and huge scale, most providers have no choice but to say yes.

    That’s why raising the eligibility age is such a poor policy. Moving a patient off the Medicare rolls and onto the private market doesn’t just shift costs from the government to the patient. It also entails a massive increase in costs.

    The Kaiser Family Foundation has found that lifting the eligibility age from 65 to 67 would reduce federal spending by about $5.7 billion in its first year of full implementation. But that would be offset by $11.4billion in spending by other parties. That includes $3.7 billion in higher costs for 65- and 66 year-olds, $4.5 billion from employers through company-sponsored insurance, $0.7 billion from state governments, and $2.5 billion in higher average prices for third parties once younger seniors are shifted out of the Medicare risk-pool and into the general population.

    That’s an absurd means of saving the federal government money—akin to raising $12 billion in taxes and then setting half the money on fire. The only people who actually benefit from this shift are health care providers who get to charge higher prices to 65- and 66-year-olds.:


    FROM: http://www.slate.com/articles/busine...ould_cost.html

    YOUR FAIL = 3

    Quote Originally Posted by bedeviled1 View Post
    If this doesn't affect you or any of your family or friends it might be easy to disregard.
    Medicare/Medicaid policies affect EVERY AMERICAN - period.
    People disregard the truth because they are apathetic, ignorant, stupid, indoctrinated, and/or corrupt.

    YOUR FAIL = 4

    Quote Originally Posted by bedeviled1 View Post
    But, when a people starts neglecting its responsibilities to people that have contributed significantly to society they are definately undermining something none of us can afford to lose.
    What responsibilities do you speak of?
    Who are they people that have contributed significantly to society, in your opinion?
    Please define who the "lazy" people are.
    What is being undermined that none of us can afford to lose?

    Your arguments are devoid of fact and completely invalid.

    YOUR FAIL = 5

    P.S. I worked for the Florida Medicaid program for six years as a Senior Software Analyst, Project Manager, and IT Operations Manager. I've developed policy and implemented it for over a dozen public health programs. I managed the State's actuarial services contract for almost four years, so I know how the rates are calculated, and what the dollar amounts are for each category of service, in each region of the State, and for every major eligibility group. You are not in a good position to win any argument with me on this topic.



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  9. #59
    Feline Member kelric's Avatar
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    Now, I'm personally of the opinion that the medicare eligibility age should be zero. I'll state that up front. Whenever the organizations providing health care services' goals are aligned more toward profit than in caring for people, people will be chosen to suffer for the financial gain of others. Which is what happens in the US now.

    However... there's another reason that raising the medicare eligibility age from 65 to say, 67, isn't a productive solution to rising health care costs (aside from Halla's analysis - which raises some very good points). And that is that health care expenditures aren't anywhere near constant among medicare recipient age cohorts, and by picking the youngest to not cover, (65 and 66-year olds), you're not really putting much of a dent in the problem. Those people are the ones who, while covered, are the smallest part of medicare's costs (and whose elimination from the program would result in the least savings for the government). Medicare pays a LOT more for folks older than 67 than it does for folks younger than 67.

    It's sort of like saying that you got in over your head by buying a Rolls Royce on credit, and are going to make up for it by buying generic bubble gum instead of Juicy Fruit. Technically, you'll save some money on that stale, crusty, tasteless gum. But it doesn't solve your financial problems.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  10. #60
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelric View Post
    Now, I'm personally of the opinion that the medicare eligibility age should be zero. I'll state that up front. Whenever the organizations providing health care services' goals are aligned more toward profit than in caring for people, people will be chosen to suffer for the financial gain of others. Which is what happens in the US now.
    Agreed 100%.

    Quote Originally Posted by kelric View Post
    However... there's another reason that raising the medicare eligibility age from 65 to say, 67, isn't a productive solution to rising health care costs (aside from Halla's analysis - which raises some very good points). And that is that health care expenditures aren't anywhere near constant among medicare recipient age cohorts, and by picking the youngest to not cover, (65 and 66-year olds), you're not really putting much of a dent in the problem. Those people are the ones who, while covered, are the smallest part of medicare's costs (and whose elimination from the program would result in the least savings for the government). Medicare pays a LOT more for folks older than 67 than it does for folks younger than 67.
    This is a fascinating point, Kelric.

    Among people in the prime of their lives CHRONIC health care costs (e.g. asthma inhalers, insulin, pain management meds, psych meds, and associated provider/facility costs to manage such conditions, etc.) comprise the bulk of most given people's annual health care expenditures.

    BUT - if you look at the last 1 to 2 years of a typical human being's life; they can in some cases compromise up to 80% of that person's total lifetime health care expenditures.
    So, let's assume the age for Medicare remains at 65, and also assume that the average life expectancy of a person in the U.S. is ~80 years of age.
    Once you are eligibile for Medicare, you have approx. 15 years to live.
    And, if you assume that a person's overall health past 67 will decrease incrementally according to their DNA and life experience on a straight, sliding scale from year 65 to year 80, then Kelric's point is crystal clear - the 65 and 66 year olds cost less than the 79 and 80 year olds; so raising the eligibility bar to 67 is of marginal utility at best, but when the model is adjusted for cost sharing shifts to the elderly, private insurers, the families of the elderly, and low income pool/disproprotionate share payments to hospitals for indigent care - the whole thing smells like a rat.

    Quote Originally Posted by kelric View Post
    It's sort of like saying that you got in over your head by buying a Rolls Royce on credit, and are going to make up for it by buying generic bubble gum instead of Juicy Fruit. Technically, you'll save some money on that stale, crusty, tasteless gum. But it doesn't solve your financial problems.
    This is a priceless analogy, and it nails the point home.



    -Halla74
    --------------------
    Type Stats:
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    BIG 5 -> Extroversion 77% ; Accommodation 60% ; Orderliness 62% ; Emotional Stability 64% ; Open Mindedness 74%

    Quotes:
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    "Enneagram is psychological underpinnings. Cognitive Functions are mental reasoning and perceptional processes. -Sanjuro

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