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  1. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I meant it was difficult to agree on an actual plan with details.

    I don't consider "tax the rich" to be a plan; that's merely a concept that anyone on a web forum can toss out and I'm sure any of us in the thread had it cross our minds. I mean, we're already discussing "taxing the rich" just to fix the imbalance in the budget, not specifically Social Security; and Congress can't agree.

    To actually come up with the details (how much to tax, who is considered rich, time frame on taxing, how that money will be monitored and "go to the right place," and so many other items necessary to implement the idea) and present them to be ratified is an actual plan.
    I'm not buying that to be honest, complexity has been an argument against proper taxation and spending for too long.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm not buying that to be honest, complexity has been an argument against proper taxation and spending for too long.
    Lol... Oh, Lark, you can't just say, "I don't buy that" when you don't want to believe something, when you yourself can't even offer some kind of general road map to proceed on.

    I mean, off the cuff, I was able to toss out a number of possibilities that would complicate coming to consensus on a solution to this kind of problem, and you provide *no* rebuttal whatsoever as to why those possibilities shouldn't be a problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I'd be happy with stopping people from getting something for nothing if we started at the top and worked our way down. I think I would probably actually throw a party if we did that and I don't even like parties.
    Well, as long as we use paper plates and homemade chicken salad sandwiches, to keep cost down.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #43
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Clinton era tax rates for everyone making over $250K/year. Pre-Clinton capital gains tax rates.

    Minimum effective tax rate of 15% on business profits? I don't know enough about corporate taxes, but I know GE and the like shouldn't have a net negative tax liability.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Well, as long as we use paper plates and homemade chicken salad sandwiches, to keep cost down.
    Okay. But I'm not making the bread. I can go to the day-old store, if necessary.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Okay. But I'm not making the bread. I can go to the day-old store, if necessary.
    Maybe that's another rule to run this country: If you don't help Little Red Hen make the bread, you don't get to eat it neither.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Lol... Oh, Lark, you can't just say, "I don't buy that" when you don't want to believe something, when you yourself can't even offer some kind of general road map to proceed on.

    I mean, off the cuff, I was able to toss out a number of possibilities that would complicate coming to consensus on a solution to this kind of problem, and you provide *no* rebuttal whatsoever as to why those possibilities shouldn't be a problem.



    Well, as long as we use paper plates and homemade chicken salad sandwiches, to keep cost down.
    No, there's no consensus to come to, there's going to be conflict and people wont agree, that's fine.

    Although suggesting that any and all adjustments of taxation and spending which are unpopular with rich people are going to founder because of complexity, in collection and spending, is an old, old argument. One which I dont believe or support.

    There's no rebuttal or solution to be proffered here, you either accept the world view of the rich and pity the millionaire or you dont.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Maybe that's another rule to run this country: If you don't help Little Red Hen make the bread, you don't get to eat it neither.
    And you can't turn her into chicken salad. That'd just be rude.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    No, there's no consensus to come to, there's going to be conflict and people wont agree, that's fine.

    Although suggesting that any and all adjustments of taxation and spending which are unpopular with rich people are going to founder because of complexity, in collection and spending, is an old, old argument. One which I dont believe or support.

    There's no rebuttal or solution to be proffered here, you either accept the world view of the rich and pity the millionaire or you dont.
    Yes, there are always naysayers. I'm not sure why you continue to skirt the issue of providing any reasonable details (Cafe tossed out a barebones approach, off the cuff, without needing a lot of thought), but whatever. I'll just note that fact, and move on.


    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    And you can't turn her into chicken salad. That'd just be rude.
    At least she could prove her contribution.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Yes, there are always naysayers. I'm not sure why you continue to skirt the issue of providing any reasonable details (Cafe tossed out a barebones approach, off the cuff, without needing a lot of thought), but whatever. I'll just note that fact, and move on.

    At least she could prove her contribution.
    I havent skirted the issue at all, if you would like a spreadsheet with information upon what precise variations in taxation I would propose, I'm sorry, I dont think that's a sincere request.

    This is a teaparty tactic, tie up your opposition in scrutiny of fine detail which isnt ever going to be agreeable anyway, there is no consensus to be built or pursued with finely tuned tax plans and spending proposals and it has been the blind alley that American liberalism has been going down since the Clinton administration.

    There is no centre ground to be seized by tinkering, you are either for tax increases or you are not, its alright if you're going out and out tea party you know, although be honest about it.

    The argument about complexity, in tax collection or spending proposals is just the information or calculation debate with socialism reheated. Like food that has been left out on the counter long enough its pretty stale.

  10. #50
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    I wish we would go on a university building spree and provide free college education as is done in sweden. This is unlikely to happen for various reasons especially with pressure on universities because of the revolution in online education, but perhaps that is alternative way of cutting the costs involved and incentivizing increased science education. I think to remain competitive we need more science majors particularly engineers however, there is currently no way of dealing with the runaway "race to the bottom" that we're seeing as the need for workers is being replaced with automation. At some point we're going to hit a crux and need to reform society to transition to some new unknown model of collective interaction that preserves human value/dignity in a sustainable fashion.
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

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