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  1. #31
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bedeviled1 View Post
    I only think that it is much too easy to have more babies and say that the father dont live with you to get a bigger check. I know people that are healthy as a horse that dont have to work. Its all screwed up. all Im saying is that the elderly seem to be the easiest target.
    I'm not saying it never happens, but it's certainly not easy to survive on TANF (I assume that's what you're talking about). The benefits are pretty darn low and TANF comes with work guidelines under most circumstances. You can only be on it so long before you are required to go to job training. There are, no doubt, people that abuse the system or at least milk it. However, we still have pretty high unemployment. There are not enough jobs for everyone that wants to work, also many people that receive assistance do work. They are the working poor. Their employers do not pay them enough to survive, so taxpayers get to make up the difference. It's just one form of corporate welfare among many.

    Rest easy. The elderly are by no means an easy political target. There are a lot of them and they vote. That is why Social Security is the "third rail" of American politics. The AARP, for example, is a not-to-be-screwed with lobbying group.

    I'm sorry for any difficulties your parents are enduring. That sucks. I think, however, it is misplacing the blame to hold impoverished single mothers responsible for possible cuts to benefits for the aged. I believe that whole argument is a misdirection on the part of those who want to shirk their responsibility to society: as long as they keep those who are struggling at each other's throats, they get to walk away without a backward glance while we bicker over the crumbs that fall out of their pockets.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  2. #32
    It's always something... PuddleRiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I believe that whole argument is a misdirection on the part of those who want to shirk their responsibility to society: as long as they keep those who are struggling at each other's throats, they get to walk away without a backward glance while we bicker over the crumbs that fall out of their pockets.
    Well said.
    "In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay one invincible summer."
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  3. #33
    It's always something... PuddleRiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post

    For those who are concerned with fairness and equality, cutting Medicare and Medicaid costs by tightening the income eligibility would likely be more palatable.
    I also agree with this.
    "In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay one invincible summer."
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    A Christian's life may be the only Bible some people ever read.
    ~~~~
    "The first time someone shows you who they are, believe them" Maya Angelou.
    ~~~~
    I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ" Gandhi
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  4. #34
    Senior Member bedeviled1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I'm not saying it never happens, but it's certainly not easy to survive on TANF (I assume that's what you're talking about). The benefits are pretty darn low and TANF comes with work guidelines under most circumstances. You can only be on it so long before you are required to go to job training. There are, no doubt, people that abuse the system or at least milk it. However, we still have pretty high unemployment. There are not enough jobs for everyone that wants to work, also many people that receive assistance do work. They are the working poor. Their employers do not pay them enough to survive, so taxpayers get to make up the difference. It's just one form of corporate welfare among

    Rest easy. The elderly are by no means an easy political target. There are a lot of them and they vote. That is why Social Security is the "third rail" of American politics. The AARP, for example, is a not-to-be-screwed with lobbying group.

    I'm sorry for any difficulties your parents are enduring. That sucks. I think, however, it is misplacing the blame to hold impoverished single mothers responsible for possible cuts to benefits for the aged. I believe that whole argument is a misdirection on the part of those who want to shirk their responsibility to society: as long as they keep those who are struggling at each other's throats, they get to walk away without a backward glance while we bicker over the crumbs that fall out of their pockets.
    Help me understand. 'Those who shirk their responsibility to society' that being the wealthy, right?
    "May you live all the days of your life"

  5. #35
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I dont think its difficult, tax the rich, its not complex even but it'd take will and a popular support that's not there.
    I meant it was difficult to agree on an actual plan with details.

    I don't consider "tax the rich" to be a plan; that's merely a concept that anyone on a web forum can toss out and I'm sure any of us in the thread had it cross our minds. I mean, we're already discussing "taxing the rich" just to fix the imbalance in the budget, not specifically Social Security; and Congress can't agree.

    To actually come up with the details (how much to tax, who is considered rich, time frame on taxing, how that money will be monitored and "go to the right place," and so many other items necessary to implement the idea) and present them to be ratified is an actual plan.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  6. #36
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    Thought this was interesting in terms of the degree of drain that SS and then Medicare inflicts on the national budget, with future projections.

    http://www.factcheck.org/2011/02/dem...ritys-red-ink/

    Also:
    http://www.urban.org/UploadedPDF/412...ity-budget.pdf
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #37
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bedeviled1 View Post
    Help me understand. 'Those who shirk their responsibility to society' that being the wealthy, right?
    If they:
    • Can afford to pay their workers a fair wage and do not, in order to maximize profits
    • If they use their influence or manufacture overseas in order to evade sound environmental practices
    • If they accept major government subsidies that do not promote the public good and/or do everything in their power to avoid paying taxes
    • If they disiminate misinformation to pursuade the public to support the interests of those who are not enduring financial hardship at the cost of the interest of the public
    • If they put a dollar value on human life and/or health and act in the intrest of profit at the cost of human life/health
    • If they use lobbyists and/or the revolving door between government regulating bodies and the private sector and/or campaign contributions to promote their own interests over that of the public

    I would consider them shirking their responsibility to society, yes.

    Individuals and the poor could also work at becoming more responsible, but for about the last thirty years wages have not kept up with the cost of living and many jobs have moved to developing countries where workers can be paid very little and where environmental and labor laws are loose, unenforced or nonexistent.

    For a long time families coped by having both parents in the workforce and by using credit to make up the difference. It was a house of cards waiting to fall and it fell. Since that happened, the wealth of the very wealthy has increased, corporate profits have been up, wages have gone down, inequality has increased, and the middle class has shrunk. I think there is something wrong with this picture and I don't think the culprits are single moms receiving TANF.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  8. #38
    Senior Member bedeviled1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    If they:
    • Can afford to pay their workers a fair wage and do not, in order to maximize profits
    • If they use their influence or manufacture overseas in order to evade sound environmental practices
    • If they accept major government subsidies that do not promote the public good and/or do everything in their power to avoid paying taxes
    • If they disiminate misinformation to pursuade the public to support the interests of those who are not enduring financial hardship at the cost of the interest of the public
    • If they put a dollar value on human life and/or health and act in the intrest of profit at the cost of human life/health
    • If they use lobbyists and/or the revolving door between government regulating bodies and the private sector and/or campaign contributions to promote their own interests over that of the public

    I would consider them shirking their responsibility to society, yes.

    Individuals and the poor could also work at becoming more responsible, but for about the last thirty years wages have not kept up with the cost of living and many jobs have moved to developing countries where workers can be paid very little and where environmental and labor laws are loose, unenforced or nonexistent.

    For a long time families coped by having both parents in the workforce and by using credit to make up the difference. It was a house of cards waiting to fall and it fell. Since that happened, the wealth of the very wealthy has increased, corporate profits have been up, wages have gone down, inequality has increased, and the middle class has shrunk. I think there is something wrong with this picture and I don't think the culprits are single moms receiving TANF.
    I didn't say they were single and that specific example was just one of many that I see as a problem. Obviously we have a difference of opinion. I don't agree with the Robin Hood mentality...take from the rich and give to the poor...I know there are people that are victims of circumstance that genuinely cannot help themselves and I am one of the first to say and try to help them. I think anyone is naive to think that the welfare programs are not being abused and a lot of people are getting the mindset of , somebody owes me something. I think Latinos are getting a lot of jobs here because of this mentality of americans 'if I can't make such and such per hour I won't do it'. I see signs all t he time, help wanted, but if you can sit at home and make more, why work?
    Sure big corporations need to be kept in check and unions do a pretty good job for some.
    Sure the government needs to make sure that employers don't abuse the rights of their employees. Sure they're needs to be minimum wage.
    I cringed when they passed NAFTA. All the presidents of this decade has been for free trade. I don't think the answer is to penalize anyone for working hard and making more money. If you brought thousands of people from third world countries here and gave them the same opportunity that we have they wouldn't gripe. Its actually happening.
    You can't have something for nothing.
    Like I said, we disagree. Maybe its a start to an answer to some of the problems. When I started this thread I was thinking, there's nothing we can do. Maybe there is.
    "May you live all the days of your life"

  9. #39
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bedeviled1 View Post
    I didn't say they were single and that specific example was just one of many that I see as a problem. Obviously we have a difference of opinion. I don't agree with the Robin Hood mentality...take from the rich and give to the poor...I know there are people that are victims of circumstance that genuinely cannot help themselves and I am one of the first to say and try to help them. I think anyone is naive to think that the welfare programs are not being abused and a lot of people are getting the mindset of , somebody owes me something. I think Latinos are getting a lot of jobs here because of this mentality of americans 'if I can't make such and such per hour I won't do it'. I see signs all t he time, help wanted, but if you can sit at home and make more, why work?
    Sure big corporations need to be kept in check and unions do a pretty good job for some.
    Sure the government needs to make sure that employers don't abuse the rights of their employees. Sure they're needs to be minimum wage.
    I cringed when they passed NAFTA. All the presidents of this decade has been for free trade. I don't think the answer is to penalize anyone for working hard and making more money. If you brought thousands of people from third world countries here and gave them the same opportunity that we have they wouldn't gripe. Its actually happening.
    You can't have something for nothing.
    Like I said, we disagree. Maybe its a start to an answer to some of the problems. When I started this thread I was thinking, there's nothing we can do. Maybe there is.
    I don't agree with the Sheriff of Nottingham mentality which is what I think we've got now, but to each their own. I agree that NAFTA sucks.

    I'd be happy with stopping people from getting something for nothing if we started at the top and worked our way down. I think I would probably actually throw a party if we did that and I don't even like parties.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  10. #40
    Senior Member bedeviled1's Avatar
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    Me either
    "May you live all the days of your life"

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