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Thread: Eugenics

  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Hitler studied a famous English author on the subject and simply put the teaching to use.
    Do you see a dividing line between Eugenics and murder? I do not.
    Those associations are a little like saying that there shouldnt have been a space programme because there was research from nazi scientists used in the project.

    I dont know who the english writer was but it doesnt surprise me, like pretty much anything else there are authoritarian and totalitarian applications of anything, pretty much, people differ over who the actors or players in it all are going to be but they remain authoritairan and totalitarian none the less, that includes so called libertarians.

    The thing about ideas associated with social engineering and eugenics is that there is not a question or straight dichotomy between "it is" and "it isnt" happening, it is happening, the question ought to be who is the present social engineering or eugenics benefiting and who isnt.

  2. #32
    morose bourgeoisie
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    The infrastructure serves only the rich in the developed world. It is harder to be poor.
    I'm talking about poor people in developing countries. It has been shown that closer family ties and greater social cohesion are highly relevant to outcomes of mental illness. The west lacks these comparably, and relies on a mechanistic model of health (i.e. allopathy) as a means of treatment, with poorer outcomes in many cases.
    And eugenics is a nefarious extension of that model. Mechanistic thinking and its application to medicine is a slippery slope that leads toward the objectification of people, both positive
    and negative. If I break my leg I want a doctor to apply this model for the purpose of repair; this is a positive application. If I have schizophrenia, this model is ineffective, and this leads authoritarians to find eugenics attractive. It eliminated a problem that they simply aren’t perspicacious enough to solve.

  3. #33
    Chaser of Light Dr Mobius's Avatar
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    Wow this is one strange thread, has anyone noticed the OP has an article from 1911 and that eugenics is a dead concept? Eugenics is defined by the oxford dictionary as “the science of improving a population by controlled breeding to increase the occurrence of desirable heritable characteristics.” Eugenics was dead the moment we started to understand genetics and the human genome. It is also important to remember that if we use our new understanding to rid ourselves of genetic diseases and birth defects; that this is not eugenics!

    Anyway I think @UniqueMixture is using the article which is just over a hundred years to show how drastically scientific thinking can change, and how it can be manipulated towards strategic ends. @ OP I also wonder if in another hundred years they will look back with dismay at our understanding of genetics and its dangers and wonders.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trollogo View Post
    Wow this is one strange thread, has anyone noticed the OP has an article from 1911 and that eugenics is a dead concept? Eugenics is defined by the oxford dictionary as “the science of improving a population by controlled breeding to increase the occurrence of desirable heritable characteristics.” Eugenics was dead the moment we started to understand genetics and the human genome. It is also important to remember that if we use our new understanding to rid ourselves of genetic diseases and birth defects; that this is not eugenics!

    Anyway I think @UniqueMixture is using the article which is just over a hundred years to show how drastically scientific thinking can change, and how it can be manipulated towards strategic ends. @ OP I also wonder if in another hundred years they will look back with dismay at our understanding of genetics and its dangers and wonders.
    It's still eugenics. That dictionary defintion is itself, outdated!

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanton Moore View Post
    It's still eugenics. That dictionary defintion is itself, outdated!
    But if the definition is outdated why not the word? Considering what eugenics is associated with and how befouled it is why would you continue to use it? It’s the equivalent of taking a swear world and trying to remove all the negative connotations. Plus eugenics is pre-emptive, attempting to remove the problem completely, while the best we can hope for in the perceivable future is using retro viruses during pregnancy, something which is decidedly not pre-emptive. Though I must admit I haven’t kept up with genetic research news for the last few years so have no idea if that is still valid.
    Last edited by Dr Mobius; 12-07-2012 at 04:45 PM. Reason: word salad

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trollogo View Post
    But if the definition is outdated why not the word? Considering what eugenics is associated with and how befouled it is why would you continue to use it? It’s the equivalent of taking a swear world and trying to remove all the negative connotations. Plus eugenics is pre-emptive, attempting to remove the problem completely, while the best we can hope for in the perceivable future is using retro viruses during pregnancy, something which is decidedly not pre-emptive. Though I must admit I haven’t kept up with genetic research news for the last few years so have no idea if that is still valid.
    It's important to use the same word, so it's negative associations are not lost.

  7. #37
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Those associations are a little like saying that there shouldnt have been a space programme because there was research from nazi scientists used in the project.

    I dont know who the english writer was but it doesnt surprise me, like pretty much anything else there are authoritarian and totalitarian applications of anything, pretty much, people differ over who the actors or players in it all are going to be but they remain authoritairan and totalitarian none the less, that includes so called libertarians.

    The thing about ideas associated with social engineering and eugenics is that there is not a question or straight dichotomy between "it is" and "it isnt" happening, it is happening, the question ought to be who is the present social engineering or eugenics benefiting and who isnt.
    I do not recall the name of the English writer at the moment. Anyway, it was not only this writer. Eugenics was a fad not only in England, it was hailed in Sweden and California as well, and in lots of other places, in the 30s. Especially Californian eugenicists were efficient in developing murderous ideas of this nature and sending directions to Hitler. The Californian waspies loved Hitler so!
    Mengele and Boeler helped Hitler in the eugenics program. In the beginning, gas was directed from automobiles to kill children in a closed room.

    Eugenics has been especially used to forcefully sterilize an maim poor children in California and Sweden. These are regarded as progressive, enlightened places. But there is a dark side to everything.

    Libertarians I have known admired authoritarian rulers such as Salazar, Mussolini, Hitler, Franco and Pinochet.

  8. #38
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanton Moore View Post
    I'm talking about poor people in developing countries. It has been shown that closer family ties and greater social cohesion are highly relevant to outcomes of mental illness. The west lacks these comparably, and relies on a mechanistic model of health (i.e. allopathy) as a means of treatment, with poorer outcomes in many cases.
    And eugenics is a nefarious extension of that model. Mechanistic thinking and its application to medicine is a slippery slope that leads toward the objectification of people, both positive
    and negative. If I break my leg I want a doctor to apply this model for the purpose of repair; this is a positive application. If I have schizophrenia, this model is ineffective, and this leads authoritarians to find eugenics attractive. It eliminated a problem that they simply aren’t perspicacious enough to solve.
    I agree close family ties prevent mental illness. Another factor that prevents mental illness is wealth.
    The Swedes have less mental illness than the Finns in this country. The Swedes have a way closer family ties, and they are more affluent.

    State health centers are expensive and work poorly. It is better to eliminate them and shift the money to a tax fond, to enable also poorer people to see a private doctor. A reduction of income tax of the medical profession, and obligation to health facilities to charge patient as much less as is the benefit of the tax reduction. Of course you can call that a mechanistic model, too. Maybe less mechanistic than the one we have.

  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    I do not recall the name of the English writer at the moment. Anyway, it was not only this writer. Eugenics was a fad not only in England, it was hailed in Sweden and California as well, and in lots of other places, in the 30s. Especially Californian eugenicists were efficient in developing murderous ideas of this nature and sending directions to Hitler. The Californian waspies loved Hitler so!
    Mengele and Boeler helped Hitler in the eugenics program. In the beginning, gas was directed from automobiles to kill children in a closed room.

    Eugenics has been especially used to forcefully sterilize an maim poor children in California and Sweden. These are regarded as progressive, enlightened places. But there is a dark side to everything.

    Libertarians I have known admired authoritarian rulers such as Salazar, Mussolini, Hitler, Franco and Pinochet.
    I know, the point is its not the state, because the state taxes, but if its anyone else tyrannising with "conscent", ie some sort of contract, its fine.

    I still dont see eugenics as discredited by association, its a little like saying that autobahns or Keynesianism are not discredited.

  10. #40
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I know, the point is its not the state, because the state taxes, but if its anyone else tyrannising with "conscent", ie some sort of contract, its fine.

    I still dont see eugenics as discredited by association, its a little like saying that autobahns or Keynesianism are not discredited.
    My dear friend, eugenics is discredited.
    Maybe it helps if we divide eugenics in parts.

    Eugenics.

    - forced sterilization: discredited.
    - forced abortion: discredited.
    - forced pregnancies: discredited.
    - compulsory social segregation: discredited.
    - compulsory racial segregation: discredited.
    - genocide: discredited.

    Fridell, in his book History of Culture of New Age, found Hitler a murderous villain.
    My father had written on a page: He created the Autobahns !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    The autobahns are discredited. Read any green pamphlet.
    My father had not read those. He read Die Welt, a reactionary paper. What did he know.

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