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Thread: Eugenics

  1. #11
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    If defective persona is genetic, how can one be sure that they do not have a defective persona?

    How can we know that the concept of eugenics itself doesn't arise from a defective need to control things? How do you know that you don't have it wrong if your sense of wrong is somehow deterministic?

    On the other hand though, I think humans are animals and will just do what they do for good or ill. Either eugenics will be or not be. And actually that in itself would tie into genetic determinism.

    Edit:
    Also I'd like to say that nature doesn't get anything wrong. We only perceive things as such.

    Edit edit:
    Also note that if we didn't have an industrialized society, these people would probably die or be killed off, either from not having the skills to survive or from being killed in self defense or territorial contest.

    Intervention is what gives them a foothold to propagate in the first place.

  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    If defective persona is genetic, how can one be sure that they do not have a defective persona?

    How can we know that the concept of eugenics itself doesn't arise from a defective need to control things? How do you know that you don't have it wrong if your sense of wrong is somehow deterministic?

    On the other hand though, I think humans are animals and will just do what they do for good or ill. Either eugenics will be or not be. And actually that in itself would tie into genetic determinism.

    Edit:
    Also I'd like to say that nature doesn't get anything wrong. We only perceive things as such.

    Edit edit:
    Also note that if we didn't have an industrialized society, these people would probably die or be killed off, either from not having the skills to survive or from being killed in self defense or territorial contest.

    Intervention is what gives them a foothold to propagate in the first place.
    If we're going to discuss nature I think we'd need a thread on the naturalistic fallacy and logical fallacies generally first.

    In the first part of your post it seems like you're supportive of subjectivism and relativism and then you made the totally opposite point afterwards.

    We already act in manners which I believe are eugenically attuned, ie there are universal and ahistorical incest taboos, obviously that has had to have been imprinted on human consciousness through millions of years for it to be so culturally transcendent.

    That's already "eugenics" and I see the best sorts of eugenics as the dessimination of information to strengthen and support those sorts of tendencies.

  3. #13
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    If we're going to discuss nature I think we'd need a thread on the naturalistic fallacy and logical fallacies generally first.

    In the first part of your post it seems like you're supportive of subjectivism and relativism and then you made the totally opposite point afterwards.

    We already act in manners which I believe are eugenically attuned, ie there are universal and ahistorical incest taboos, obviously that has had to have been imprinted on human consciousness through millions of years for it to be so culturally transcendent.

    That's already "eugenics" and I see the best sorts of eugenics as the dessimination of information to strengthen and support those sorts of tendencies.
    Cultural evolution. Which is natural.

    I've yet to see a logical explanation for the idea that we are somehow magically separate in our consciousness from natural workings.

    This kind of brings a catch 22 since we are subject to nature before we begin fiddling with it, so therefore being able to fiddle with it in fact arises from nature. So therefore, as I said, nature does not mess up.

    It's going to be what it's going to be. I'm just wondering where we arrive at the ethical ground which says that we are actually able to make this call, effectively claiming self aware knowledge that some people are defective while others are clear seeing and able to identify these defects. How can one arrive at this self assured position?

    Edit:
    Or look at it this way. If your mind is somehow predetermined then your acknowledgement that it is predetermined and what you should do about predetermination is also predetermined.

    Long story short: if they aren't in charge of themselves then nobody is unless the discrepancy can be explained.

  4. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    Cultural evolution. Which is natural.

    I've yet to see a logical explanation for the idea that we are somehow magically separate in our consciousness from natural workings.

    This kind of brings a catch 22 since we are subject to nature before we begin fiddling with it, so therefore being able to fiddle with it in fact arises from nature. So therefore, as I said, nature does not mess up.

    It's going to be what it's going to be. I'm just wondering where we arrive at the ethical ground which says that we are actually able to make this call, effectively claiming self aware knowledge that some people are defective while others are clear seeing and able to identify these defects. How can one arrive at this self assured position?

    Edit:
    Or look at it this way. If your mind is somehow predetermined then your acknowledgement that it is predetermined and what you should do about predetermination is also predetermined.

    Long story short: if they aren't in charge of themselves then nobody is unless the discrepancy can be explained.
    Here, there's this really great quote from Erich Fromm...

    In all seriousness mankind is the only species for which its existence is a problem, because of consciousness, we're part of nature but apart form it and know it and able to comprehend it as nature and ourselves as seperate as a result. If that makes sense.

    The fact that we're conscious I think means that we can comprehend and make judgements about nature. Most of what exists and is created by mankind is artifice though, wouldnt you say? The welfare state is one example of subverting a natural order. The state per se probably.

  5. #15
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Here, there's this really great quote from Erich Fromm...

    In all seriousness mankind is the only species for which its existence is a problem, because of consciousness, we're part of nature but apart form it and know it and able to comprehend it as nature and ourselves as seperate as a result. If that makes sense.

    The fact that we're conscious I think means that we can comprehend and make judgements about nature. Most of what exists and is created by mankind is artifice though, wouldnt you say? The welfare state is one example of subverting a natural order. The state per se probably.
    Well I think we just trick ourselves into believing we comprehend. Like some people wonder how a person can snore and not wake themselves up - except people who snore actually do wake themselves up and they are just not aware of it mostly because it is brief.

    But yes, we make artifice, and that tendency is not unnatural. When it comes to artifice and social structure, we only differ from animals by degree and complexity, and well, degree is just tricky. Saying that a house or our state is unnatural yet a bird nest or bee colony is natural is like wondering how many grains of sand you need to make a pile.

    So yeah. The difference pretty much comes down to consciousness and in a lot of ways is just a dualistic illusion.

  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    Well I think we just trick ourselves into believing we comprehend. Like some people wonder how a person can snore and not wake themselves up - except people who snore actually do wake themselves up and they are just not aware of it mostly because it is brief.

    But yes, we make artifice, and that tendency is not unnatural. When it comes to artifice and social structure, we only differ from animals by degree and complexity, and well, degree is just tricky. Saying that a house or our state is unnatural yet a bird nest or bee colony is natural is like wondering how many grains of sand you need to make a pile.

    So yeah. The difference pretty much comes down to consciousness and in a lot of ways is just a dualistic illusion.
    Perhaps, I dont believe that instinctive animals ever experience the sorts of cognition we do, even if scientists are suggesting more and more that we're more animal than we think.

    The thing about the nests is a good point, construction is similar I guess but most animals do not construct as we do with aesthetics rather than practicality or functionality as a goal.

  7. #17
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Perhaps, I dont believe that instinctive animals ever experience the sorts of cognition we do, even if scientists are suggesting more and more that we're more animal than we think.

    The thing about the nests is a good point, construction is similar I guess but most animals do not construct as we do with aesthetics rather than practicality or functionality as a goal.
    Oh sure, we're very different and do quite different things. However I'm sure that if aesthetics were valuable to animals, and they had the ability, they'd use them.

    This kind of registers as another behavior difference, to me. Dolphins swim, birds sing, ducks quack, and humans think about stuff.

  8. #18
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    I did not know there was such a gene as poverty.
    So you want to kill the poor?
    And there will be no poverty ever after?
    As everybody knows, there are more poor among African Americans than among you waspies.
    Apropos Eugenics is your racist program.

    Hitler made Eugenics famous. He started his war on poverty by killing autistic children in gas buses.
    He wanted a war in the East to get his hands on Jews and Slavs.

    So you want to kill the insane and the homeless on the streets!
    Do you know why they are insane and homeless? Because they are poor.
    There is six times as much schizophrenics among the poor as there is among the rich.

  9. #19
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    So you want to kill the insane and the homeless on the streets!
    Do you know why they are insane and homeless? Because they are poor.
    There is six times as much schizophrenics among the poor as there is among the rich.
    Are you saying that poverty causes schizophrenia?
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

  10. #20
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Are you saying that poverty causes schizophrenia?
    Not only schizophrenia.

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