User Tag List

First 4567 Last

Results 51 to 60 of 64

  1. #51

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I don't personally identify with any ideology, but attempt to view systems from a distance so that I can question any of them without fear of losing something of personal significance and identity to myself. In this way I am not a Capitalist, Socialist, Communist, or any other "ist". It is entirely possible that every ideology we currently have will fail on the global scale. It is possible we have not figured out a best system.
    Sometimes I've not minded being called or associated with in the minds of others with conservatism but never capitalism, its something like a slur or prejorative slander in my mind, perhaps its a deep seated cultural thing, which brings me on to my point.

    I think underlying and underpinning all the world ideologies are more deep seated traditions, this is what has resulted in some ideas which should have been emancipatory in certain contexts becoming tyrannical and others which should have been tyrannical being at least mitigated some how.

    However, I do think that in all contexts there are unacknowledged and often vital stabilising tendencies which are co-operative, interdependent, reciprocal, any awareness or validation of these things has faded into the background or all but disappeared from human consciousness altogether and there's even theory bases working hard to undermine and attack it.

    What happens with riches or power, I think, is not simply that there's more means for evil than the average, so more wrong doing, but there is already an existing wish to rationalise your riches and power as legitimate, it then taps into or sponsors that tendency which is set against co-operation, interdependence and reciprocity which permits further and further rationalisations of further and further wrong doing.

    There are similar things on the opposite end of the spectrum, the hard luck story version of it, in which someone uses their underprivileged status origins to begin the same journey.

  2. #52
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    3,619

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    There's that word evil. It makes me hesitant to affirm. Putting aside the word choice, I do find the concept of the study completely believable. It is something I would have assumed without seeing research.

    Everyone has heard that power corrupts. Well, wealth is the fundamental source of power in our current age, and being powerful corrupts because it means you don't have to be as concerned about how others relate to you. You can afford to wrong more people because they have less ability to hurt you. As human beings most of us have moral concepts which influence our behavior, but the influence is far from absolute. In the absence of a practical cost for behaving immorally, people are more likely to do so. This all seems like a no-brainer to me, but probably someone will post their disbelief and offense in this thread.

    However, there's another factor. There is still room for an explanation that comes from a pre-existing condition. That is to say, wealth does not just make people less ethical, but that less ethical people are also more likely to get wealthy. We can probably assume that a person who places higher value on getting rich is more likely to get rich, and that in of itself translates to greed, which we don't think of as ethical. The other thing is that you're going to achieve a task more easily the few limits you put on yourself in pursuing. In this case, those limits might include things like honesty, fairness, and compassion. Shed those and you'll have a more expedient path to wealth.
    All true. No objection. I only want to make an added statement.

    There are thee socioeconomic classes.

    The Rich.
    Middle Class.
    The Poor.

    Two modes of tax.

    Progressive tax.
    Flat tax.

    The rich evades taxes. Middle class pays progressive tax in this country. The poor cannot afford to pay tax.
    If we take care of the poor, we have to find the money. If the rich did their share of taxes, we could have flat tax and we still could take care of the poor. Now we have progressive tax for the middle class. If we did not have it, we could not take care of the poor.
    The middle class it therefore striving, and behind with their taxes. Because they are behind, they have immediately to earn lots and lots more money to pay the taxes. Nothing is left of that money, the taxes take it. While earning it, the middle class ends in a bad circle: they have to pay new tax for all the money they have to earn quickly.
    It eventually makes them work all the time. While they work all the time, their children are unattended, alone at home. Doing God knows what. What will the neglect of the young cost to society?

  3. #53
    Senior Member bedeviled1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    207

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    That's an interesting show. It doesn't seem to me to be so much about rich people being unethical though. It strikes me as being more about inequality and that the self interest of those on the top of the economic ladder causes them to behave in a way to further their own self interest (i.e., that helps them to get more money personally) and because of this, the people on the lower end of the ladder have no chance to climb up the ladder. The cards are stacked against them.

    I would say some of the messaging is distorted though. The top 1% as they are so called are not all living at 740 Park Avenue and the vast majority of them are most certainly not super rich. Most simply worked hard and saved their money over a number of years. Also, the fact that rich people (or any of us for that matter) operate out of self interest is not new.

    The American Dream is still alive. You can start with nothing and make something of yourself. You can raise a family that is economically more advantaged than you were. That's the way the country has always been and it's still that way. It's why people want to come to the United States - because there is opportunity.

    With respect to the poor people who aren't making enough money to support themselves and are living with the support of food stamps, I think this is less about a bunch of rich people holding them down and more about a global economy and increased competitiveness. Goods are manufactured where people will work for less money. Unless the cost of transporting the goods increases to a point where it is more feasible to manufacture them locally, work will continue to be sent offshore.

    If education is the key to social mobility, one thing that concerns me more than anything is the cost of a college education which has gone up enormously over the past 30 years. What has happened over the last 30 years is that the amount of tax dollars going to public universities has declined substantially. So, to go to a state school where I live, it's $30K a year. If your parents are on the lower end of the economic spectrum, you can get scholarships. If you are closer to middle income, it is hard to get much and the student or parents end up taking out massive loans. Who wants to graduate from college with the equivalent of $100K - $200K mortgage? Yet, the influx of foreign students in American colleges continues to rise. It is supply and demand.

    "The American Dream is still alive"

    Hey I hope you have better luck with that phrase than I did in a previous thread. Not only was it dead it was among other things,…" a myth" which brought to mind a term popular in the sixties. "The man" . Such as , the man is out to get ya. It occured to me that a lot of sentiment today is paranoia. Could it be that the same base that's supposed to be helping is holding them back. Or maybe just a part of a group that is actually holding them all in a state of mind that's suppressing their ability to be socially mobile.so in reality there is no such thing as "the American Dream" for them? If you convince me there is no such thing and a whole movement is based on a misconception where would it end. I imagine such words will enrage some but that's not my intent. I see it as a possibility. Tax the rich, fear the rich, the rich are evil, no matter if they worked their ass off or not. I wonder how much "the rich" contribute to charity... I know a guy that's a millionaire, which to me is rich, that often dresses almost like a vagrant and you wouldn't think he had a dime but contributes a lot to the community as scholarships... how many more like that is out there? Am I naive? Maybe. I have a feeling I will hear about it.
    The glass is half FULL!
    "May you live all the days of your life"

  4. #54
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    3w4
    Posts
    6,276

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Re bolded - that's a pretty strong statement and I am skeptical. Where do you get this from?



    Ok, so non-surgeons do procedures too. What's wrong with doing a lot of colonoscopies? That's evil?

    I guess I don't get your point and/or don't buy into the logic.

    I have always imagined that supply and demand is at play. If you have skills that are in high demand and low supply and you use those skills in a productive capacity then you get more money.
    If the patient does not need a colonoscopy, then it is wasteful. It drives up the cost of health care/insurance while lining the pockets of those who sell the unnecessary treatments/procedures/etc. We have a system that incentivizes waste.

    Supply and demand does not apply to health care like it does to other industries. People don't buy cancer treatment (or colonoscopies) because it's on sale. They buy it because they have cancer (coerced decision) or because their doctor tells them they need it in the case of colonoscopies. Also, working in a specialty does not require more skill than working as a primary care physician. Primary care (and internal medicine) are actually more difficult than most specialties because you have to maintain a much greater breadth of knowledge than specialists do.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #55
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    6w5 sx/sp
    Socionics
    ILI Ni
    Posts
    17,885

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    If the patient does not need a colonoscopy, then it is wasteful. It drives up the cost of health care/insurance while lining the pockets of those who sell the unnecessary treatments/procedures/etc. We have a system that incentivizes waste.

    Supply and demand does not apply to health care like it does to other industries. People don't buy cancer treatment (or colonoscopies) because it's on sale. They buy it because they have cancer (coerced decision) or because their doctor tells them they need it in the case of colonoscopies. Also, working in a specialty does not require more skill than working as a primary care physician. Primary care (and internal medicine) are actually more difficult than most specialties because you have to maintain a much greater breadth of knowledge than specialists do.
    A friend of mine had a 37 year old brother that recently died of colon cancer. If he had a colonoscopy it would have been detected early. There is nothing wrong with preventative or detective procedures. More people need colonoscopies than get them today.

    Please provide feedback on my Nohari and Johari Window by clicking here: Nohari/Johari

    Tri-type 639

  6. #56
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    3w4
    Posts
    6,276

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    A friend of mine had a 37 year old brother that recently died of colon cancer. If he had a colonoscopy it would have been detected early. There is nothing wrong with preventative or detective procedures. More people need colonoscopies than get them today.
    More people do need them, but the people who do get them are getting them too often.

    http://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/synthes...ws2.html?aID=2

    http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/201...tting_too.html
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #57
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    18,524
    It's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for the rich to get into heaven.

  8. #58
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4 sp/so
    Posts
    6,172

    Default

    FYI: I haven't watched the video in the OP, but I have read most of the posts in this thread.

    I would suspect that the percentage of evil rich is probably reflective of the percentage of evil people in the whole population. I think that, probably, the worst that can be said of the rich as a whole is that they are oblivious. But then I think most of us are oblivious to the actual trials and needs of the classes below us economically. I suspect that many of those who have worked their way out of poverty forget how tough it actually was, though they remember enough to not want to go back to it.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  9. #59
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    6
    Posts
    24,060

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    FYI: I haven't watched the video in the OP, but I have read most of the posts in this thread.

    I would suspect that the percentage of evil rich is probably reflective of the percentage of evil people in the whole population.
    This makes sense to me- it also seems like a person who has a lot of money has a greater level of freedom to practice/inflict their evil. It seems like there would be cases in which a person "would if they could" (re: doing bad stuff) but lack the means, so they can maintain the appearance of having a working moral compass. If that person came into a lot of money it could appear that they became evil when it was in them all along, they just didn't have the opportunity to fully live into it.

  10. #60
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    MBTI
    xxTP
    Posts
    1,261

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    This makes sense to me- it also seems like a person who has a lot of money has a greater level of freedom to practice/inflict their evil. It seems like there would be cases in which a person "would if they could" (re: doing bad stuff) but lack the means, so they can maintain the appearance of having a working moral compass. If that person came into a lot of money it could appear that they became evil when it was in them all along, they just didn't have the opportunity to fully live into it.
    With this logic, we would expect to see less evil in poorer societies.

    The opposite is true. Go to a third world slum and you will see evil every day.

    The problem is lack of laws and institutions, not the existence of wealth.

Similar Threads

  1. Cognition: Are the Functions Hierarchal?
    By Mempy in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 03-20-2008, 04:07 PM
  2. The Lives of Secret Twins of the Rich and Famous
    By Totenkindly in forum The Fluff Zone
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 03-13-2008, 10:41 AM
  3. [NT] Which type are the best cards players...
    By Maha Raj in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 40
    Last Post: 02-10-2008, 12:28 PM
  4. What are the emoticons saying?
    By ygolo in forum The Fluff Zone
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 11-28-2007, 02:58 PM
  5. Celebrating the Rich Inner Life
    By rivercrow in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 06-14-2007, 07:52 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO