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  1. #1
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Default Gay Men's Sexism and Women's Bodies

    From this article -- inspired by @Domino, who suggested that a thread be created around it.

    It all rings very true for me, and I know quite a few gay men who fall into this every once and a while. After I lost five or ten pounds one summer, one of my best friends, who is gay but not flamboyant at all, gave me a long lecture about how I should not have lost the weight, and now I look worse than I did, and I had better not lose more weight. I was surprised that even my non-flamboyant, generally respectful, extremely feminist gay friend would fall into this mindset regarding male ownership of women's bodies, but there it was.

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  2. #2
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Can the mods move some of the conversation from the other thread here?
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  3. #3
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Default

    I can quote it -- no worries. One sec.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  4. #4
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I have a close friend (ENFJ) who reminds me of what you're talking about. He's openly gay and has acted for a long time as if he was repulsed -- repulsed! -- by even the thought of a sexual encounter with a woman. But I found out later that it was because he had some sexual desire for women, even to the point of having a "type" when it comes to the female form*, but was afraid of recognizing those feelings, much like the stereotype of how the most conservative Christian family-values men are likely closeted and gay.

    *He likes his women with hourglass figures. I first came to suspect that he had a "type" when he lectured me for losing five or ten pounds, saying that I had looked better before! On principle, I had to give him the speech about perceived male ownership of women's bodies -- even if I was doing it only half-seriously.

    (Probably should have showed him this article.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    How very odd. It probably is a means to reaffirm one's sexual orientation to touch and not care. To behave like that, though, these people must have no sense of personal space.

    Anyway, more food for Salomé's all-men-are-scumbags theory.
    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I dunno about that. The article showed pretty well that generally, when guys act like that and have the sexism of their behavior pointed out to them, they're mortified because they'd never thought about it that way. I've been sharing the article on Facebook, and asking all my friends to share it, because gay guys in my demographic -- i.e. twentysomethings in college in the US -- are very likely to consider themselves to be feminist and therefore are likely to change their behavior right away (or at least think very seriously about changing it) if they find out that it's perceived as sexist.

    After all, the gay guys who do act like that, that I know personally, only do so because it's socially acceptable and generally gets more of a positive response than a negative one. Like it said in the article, they're socialized to think that it's practically their role in society to be the sassy tough-loving best friend to every girl they meet. Like in the "Sassy Gay Friend" YouTube videos.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    That is basically what I meant and find deplorable: social role before individual consideration and, for the dumb ones, often only the former.

    The scumbag part was a joke. I am sure all people are susceptible to cultural follies.
    Quote Originally Posted by Domino View Post
    I think this deserves its own thread, really. I'm absolutely gobsmacked by that op-ed you posted. I'm not one of the girls that generally gets touched by gay men (perhaps I look too ferocious?) but I have noticed their seeming ability to not only compartmentalize other gays (how many "types" of gay men are there? More than you can shake a stick at...) but also to slot women immediately into one of three categories - allow me to share a personal experience.

    I was out at a drag club one night with my ESFP friend and my ENFP sister. When we walked in, they both began commenting that the gay men were reacting to me specifically in a very strange manner. Either curious stares or outright hostility. I was surprised by it.

    One of them, loosened up by a few drinks, saw me walking down the stairs to the courtyard, said, "Why so sad? You're the most beautiful girl in the room." (That made me feel defensive of my sister and friend, like "HEY!")

    He put his arm around me, COVERED me in kisses, and said, "If I weren't gay, I'd **** you. Everyone in here wants to **** you." He said that ESFP was clearly a bi/swinger (read: would have sex with anything after a few drinks) and my sister was a duchess (read: so straight it hurts). He said I was possibly a lesbian which was okay with him because he loved lesbians, and he even grabbed another girl's ass (she was a lesbian, and she was there with her girlfriend -- we found her later and made sure she was okay; luckily, she was even-keeled and refrained from punching him, and she made a comment about gay men being "weird" about lesbians - "Either they love us or hate us.")

    "Fag Hag", Lesbian, or Straight Girl.

    Yes, this deserves a thread.
    .
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    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  5. #5
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Lucky for me, @Kasper explained quite a few things to me about gay culture, and help to demystify the parts that seemed to overlap into the straight world. For example, I'd had no idea that gay men and lesbians were frequently on opposing sides. I guess I'd always assumed they existed in the same hemisphere of "queer" culture and didn't feel weird about each other. I only began to ask questions when it started to come across my own path or in the path of someone I knew who was straight and experiencing something that could only be explained by the Kinsey Scale.

    I can admit my ignorance. I don't mind being taught.

    @lauranna, @CzeCze, get in here, ladies. Pretty please, we need some personal experience.
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  6. #6
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    It's kind of funny.

    I don't hang with neanderthal guys, so typically straight guys to me just seem rather indifferent... they don't make obnoxious comments, they don't touch, but they don't contribute much either on the personal/emotional fronts. (they would NEVER comment on weight, for example.)

    The gay men I know seem to be the extremes. Either they are highly sensitive and extremely polite, or they at the end that is being described in this thread. And while they might feel they have a connection to the feminine (this latter group), they almost try to use it carte blanche and end up showing they have no real clue what the women around them are feeling. And even with my own peculiar background, the first group (despite being gay) know instinctively that they don't really understand it and so they typically are polite and just ask questions, whereas the latter seems to assume they totally understand and end up looking like idiots and stepping on toes.
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  7. #7
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    I guess I was baffled by inducing a SEXUAL response in someone I'd automatically assumed/allowed/decided on every level was "against" me. I'm not a dramatic ninny who goes around teasing confused people or forcing her sexuality on those who would NOT appreciate it, so this continued (yes, I say continued... it's still happening...) - shall we call it, instinctive? Animal? response to me as a sexual entity and not as the typical diva/sister/idol figure, well... I still don't understand it. Like causing sexual physical responses in men who look freaked out by it.

    I tried shrugging it off, but when it keeps happening, I have to ask questions. I hate enigmas. I have to pull them apart. And this one kind of hurts my feelings. I don't want to be hurt by it anymore.
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  8. #8
    libtard SJW chickpea's Avatar
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    in high school I had a lot of gay male friends, a few would be very physical with me, just come up to me and grab my boobs or butt like it was no big deal. I guess I didn't really care at the time either. one friend hugged me in the hallway at school and bit me on the neck super hard and left a bruise.

    I was always most bothered on unwarranted advice on how to be feminine from them. like "you should dress like this so guys will like you more!"

  9. #9
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chana View Post
    in high school I had a lot of gay male friends, a few would be very physical with me, just come up to me and grab my boobs or butt like it was no big deal. I guess I didn't really care at the time either. one friend hugged me in the hallway at school and bit me on the neck super hard and left a bruise.
    Holy wow. And how did you respond to it?

    I've had a male friend bite my neck before, but he was straight. I was too stunned to react, so my ESFJ girlfriend hit him.

    I was always most bothered on unwarranted advice on how to be feminine from them. like "you should dress like this so guys will like you more!"
    And how did you respond to that as well?
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  10. #10
    Senior Member BAJ's Avatar
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    I don't know about comments about my weight, but i did make the mistake of getting between lesbians and gays...or rather I took a position of trying to be neutral, and it really destroyed my relationships with some gays.

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