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  1. #51
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    A gay man I didn't know tried to touch my boobs at a late ole bar. I jut backed away and gave him the "uh no" look. It didn't offend be as a woman just weirded me out as an individual interacting with a stranger.

    I don't know if implies "ownership". I think maybe just the generally idea that women are made to be looked at by all people. To be evaluated by other women and men based on looks.

    I guess it could be tied to ownership but I also think it stands apart from it. I guess being judges on the sexual pleasure you can bring to men, to my mind, is more a problem of relative value than ownership. So a man touching a woman I appropriately isn't to display ownership so much as feeding on the idea that it is complimentary to the woman to have her assets appreciated

  2. #52
    Senior Member bedeviled1's Avatar
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    I see . I guess everybody is like that to some degree. But its impossible to get. Everyones approval. Figure out which ones matter and say the others can kiss my ass. I have tried to please everybody all my life. Its impossible. Besides some r just jealous
    "May you live all the days of your life"

  3. #53
    Senior Member bedeviled1's Avatar
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    Maybe the whole SUPER SENSITIVE thing is a front for a lot of gay men. I think its just more stereotype. Every gay man isn't sensitive and every straight man is definately not a redneck jock. I was taught to appreciate and respect women as human beings
    "May you live all the days of your life"

  4. #54
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bedeviled1 View Post
    Personally I don't understand why a woman would even care what a gay guy thought about their looks. Kinda be like me caring about what the dude next to me at work thought about me. Don't give a s***t
    They care because they are vain and over-invested in what others think of their sexual attractiveness. A women's sexual attractiveness is accepted currency well beyond the sexual arena so that some women allow themselves to be defined by it in everything they do. Look at a show like Sex and the City for a good example of the vapidity of such people.
    They give up power over their self-esteem to others (het men, other women, even gay men) and then blame those others for "owning" their bodies. It's ridiculous, when you think about it. You can blame society for conditioning women to care so much about nonsense, but I think individuals need to examine themselves instead of always trying to deflect blame. They need to realise that by emphasising and focussing so much on their own appearance they themselves become part of the problem. And this part of the problem they have complete ownership of.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  5. #55
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    When I think about inappropriate critiques / breast squeezing, these two immediately come to mind. Check out the insanely mixed messages in the intro to this show: "love your breasts!" "your boobs look like shit!" I don't really understand how they don't get lamped.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  6. #56
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    Whilst I'm sure there are many who criminalize men for this, fia was suggesting it's the patriarchy rather than men.
    Meh. "The patriarchy". What does that even mean?
    She said:
    Quote Originally Posted by fia
    I'm not certain of the frequency of women grabbing at men, and this may be an actual issue now, but it is possibly imitative behavior. There is a longer history of men intruding on women's physical space. I'd be interested to see a poll of how many guys have been groped compared to women.
    ...<bunch of examples of abusive men>
    That reads pretty unambiguously as a critique of men. In the context of this thread, it lumps gay men in with those sexually abusive men. Then suggests that if women do these things, it's only because they've been influenced by men. I find it hard to let that pass unchallenged.

    Quote Originally Posted by fia
    I'm not suggesting a direct cause-and-effect, but a society that has a comfort level with intrusion from one group to another, which then begins to balance the power between the groups will likely see the formerly oppressed group begin to express some of the same dominant behaviors because that is what they have learned. I am not suggesting a direct connection, but an indirect cause-and-effect which requires panning out to see the largest picture.
    All societies have power imbalances. All social groups do. I think kyriarchy is a more fitting term than patriarchy. Especially given your example about your own relationship to different ethnic groups.

    . Sometimes it helps to develop tangential concepts to get a more holistic concept of complex social dynamics.
    Sometimes it helps. Sometimes it leads off down blind alleys which simply reflect our own knee-jerk presumptions.

    I actually don't have a definite certitude of conclusion on this topic, and if you look at my wording I asked if it was possible there was a connection. One question to ask is this: Where does entitlement to intrude into someone's physical space come from then? We know where traditional heterosexual male to female intrusion comes from, so where does female to female or homosexual male to female come from, etc.? Are they independently developed impulses with no connection whatsoever?
    I think it's safe to say that sexual impulses to intrude on someone's physical space non-consensually are coming from a different place than non-sexual ones, which may be affectionate, playful etc etc.

    Women are generally more tactile with friends than men are. Gay men are often tactile in similar ways to women with women. Thus it is more logical to interpret their behaviour as one might interpret a woman doing the same thing than to assume its about "male privilege" " male ownership" or "the patriarchy" (which latter has historically persecuted the LGBT community).

    I am insulted by the premise of this thread on behalf of gay men.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  7. #57
    Senior Member bedeviled1's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Salomé;1997165]They care because they are vain and over-invested in what others think of their sexual attractiveness. A women's sexual attractiveness is accepted currency well beyond the sexual arena so that some women allow themselves to be defined by it in everything they do. Look at a show like Sex and the City for a good example of the vapidity of such people.
    They give up power over their self-esteem to others (het men, other women, even gay men) and then blame those others for "owning" their bodies. It's ridiculous, when you think about it. You can blame society for conditioning women to care so much about nonsense, but I think individuals need to examine themselves instead of always trying to deflect blame. They need to realise that by emphasising and focussing so much on their own appearance they themselves become part of the problem. And this part of the problem they have complete ownership of.[/QUOTE]

    I guess todays standard of VALUE is the rule that we use to measure our own self worth.
    "May you live all the days of your life"

  8. #58
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    When I think about inappropriate critiques / breast squeezing, these two immediately come to mind. Check out the insanely mixed messages in the intro to this show: "love your breasts!" "your boobs look like shit!" I don't really understand how they don't get lamped.
    That was incredibly weird. But in the vein of most makeover shows. Sort of attempting to building someone up by making them evaluate themselves by standards of physical attractiveness.

    I always have a problem with campaigns that encourage girls to "know that you are all beautiful". Wouldn't the more important thing be to know that you are all valuable in some way wether it be looks or some other skill. I guess I think you should tell girls " you may not be the most attractive but that's not the end of the world". In a lot of interactions with women too there is a weird idea that you have to validate each others beauty.

    Like I put a picture of Facebook to be funny where my head looked really big and said something about having hydrocephalism. The immediate response were like "no your so pretty" "your head is beautiful". I looked weird but I think people assumed I was fishing for compliments. I really thought it was funny to look strange. I've noticed at lost of women posting on each others walls "you look cute chica!" "Omg hair looks amazing".

    Anyways I think there is an idea that looking good empowers people, especially women, but really it just means conforming your idea of success to the ideas of consumerism and public image. I don't think there is any real self worth built from it.

    So like a previous poster said I think people need to place less stock I what others think. (Though I'm guilty of this too sometimes).

  9. #59
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino View Post
    HOWEVER -- I have had straight friends get drunk and make out (just the girls, really). That doesn't surprise me actually for many reasons. But a gay guy kissing on a girl? I guess (and forgive my assumption, if that is what it is) I always understood men to be WAAAAAY less flexible by natural design to such interactions. Women, even the more masculine ones, have a sense of nuture and emotion that most straight (AND GAY) men lack or refuse to tap into, so when I hear about a man who identifies as GAY or STRAIGHT, and then he gets drunk and acts COUNTER to that, I walk away in utter confusion.

    Does anyone have anything that might help me understand this better?
    Ok, so it seems that these days a lot of women make out with other women (to whom they are not sexually attracted) because this is generally accepted as exhibitionism of a heterosexually appropriate variety. Yeah...go figure. Blame porn.
    Actually, this is one of the best examples of men genuinely owning women's bodies, or more explicitly, their sexuality. A lot of young women seem to think that sexuality is about "being sexy" about performance and appearance rather than a genuine connection with or expression of their own sexual desire. It's a deeply tragic state of affairs.

    I certainly do not believe that men are inherently less flexible in this regard. If anything, they are probably more flexible (since sex is often more mechanical for them). Just think about Ancient Greek pederasts or the behaviour of "straight" men in prison, and you will see a "flexibility" that is unrivalled. However, (perhaps because of this flexibility) they are more constrained by society about how they go about expressing their sexuality. Which often leaves them very conflicted and fucked up. Just the other week here another young man murdered a bartender he met and confided in about his homoerotic desires, they had sex, then he killed him. It's hard to imagine a woman being similarly distressed about homoerotic desires, but then women are encouraged to express any and all sexual desire - even when they don't feel it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  10. #60
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    I always have a problem with campaigns that encourage girls to "know that you are all beautiful". Wouldn't the more important thing be to know that you are all valuable in some way wether it be looks or some other skill. I guess I think you should tell girls " you may not be the most attractive but that's not the end of the world". In a lot of interactions with women too there is a weird idea that you have to validate each others beauty.

    Like I put a picture of Facebook to be funny where my head looked really big and said something about having hydrocephalism. The immediate response were like "no your so pretty" "your head is beautiful". I looked weird but I think people assumed I was fishing for compliments. I really thought it was funny to look strange. I've noticed at lost of women posting on each others walls "you look cute chica!" "Omg hair looks amazing".

    Anyways I think there is an idea that looking good empowers people, especially women, but really it just means conforming your idea of success to the ideas of consumerism and public image. I don't think there is any real self worth built from it.
    Exactly. It builds insecurity and a need for constant validation and reassurance from others. I resent the expectation and refuse to play. Yet another reason why I shun Facebook.
    If only all women were INTPs...how awesome that would be.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

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