User Tag List

First 34567 Last

Results 41 to 50 of 89

  1. #41
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    Yin
    Enneagram
    One sx/sp
    Posts
    13,911

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Hilarious!
    I'm not seeing "male ownership of women's bodies" in this, ttytt. In my experience, straight women are far more likely to make these kinds of comments than (gay or straight) men. It's one of the reasons I find hanging out with women so dull. The constant comments about appearance - their own or other women's, or mine. Shut. The Fuck. Up. about your stupid ass! I DON'T CARE how big it looks in those pants!!
    As a gay man, I would classify his comments in this critical, female-on-female light. Plus, I think gay guys are just more sensitive to aesthetics for their own sake (i.e. in a non-sexual context).

    It's also possible that he was worried about you losing too much weight...? So many other interpretations to be made here than the one you're reaching for.
    How would you interpret a heterosexual man doing these things?
    Go to sleep, iguana.


    _________________________________
    INTP. Type 1>6>5. sx/sp.
    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

  2. #42

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tkae. View Post
    Gay.
    Haven't touched any of a woman's erogenous zones since I was four.
    Don't giving a flying fuck about fashion.

    I'm a hugger once I know someone long enough or if they deserve one, usually women since men prefer hand shakes and that's not a socially acceptable thing for two men to do, but it's always a hug from the side and I always ask first. It's not anything like what this guy was talking about.

    I think the problem with the discussion in this thread and with the article in general is that it reduces gay males to a stereotype driven by the most obnoxiously visible members of its demographic, which are also a minority.

    There's a silent majority of gay males who aren't involved in any of the clubs, workshops, or classes the author of the article mentioned.

    As far as sexism and misogyny are concerned, I can be a bit misogynistic when the conversation towards feminism. For me, feminism has taken hold of the reins on the gay male stereotype and feminized it in order to bring about "conversation". Beyond just militant feminists steamrolling the halfway conscious feminists and driving an anti-masculine dialogue down everybody's throats, feminism in general has (until very, very recently) neglected the conversation of what it means to be a modern male (ironically, the website is dedicated to creating a "good men" while being driven by feminist logic, which is completely nonsensical since only from a feminist perspective is any kind of functional masculinity "good" or "bad). Statistics cite bad examples and ignore the good behaviors of decent boyfriends, husbands, and male members of society, who, like gay men, are the silent majority that get excluded because they don't fit the highly visible stereotype of men as wifebeating neanderthals.

    So from our perspective, feminism has demonized masculinity in a way. Just like the women of this thread take issue with women being told how to be women by gay men, men as a whole take issue with women telling them how to be good men. Yes, feminism has done some great things for the gay community, but not for all of us. Only for the ones who embrace their feminist rhetoric, which is an issue for gay males (again, the silent majority) who aren't effeminate, who don't fall cleanly into the stereotype that's been drawn out by feminist "dialogue", and who don't agree with the repercussions of feminist rhetoric.

    But that article is hilariously blinded by its own agenda. It just hop-skip-jumps straight over neutrality and demographics and leans in some imaginary world of implication. I even love how he phrases the question for gay men at one of his seminars and blatantly suggests they ARE misogynists instead of giving them the benefit of the (statistically likely) doubt:

    .

    Thanks man. You don't even know me and you've suggests I'm sexist, a misogynist, that I don't love my mother, and that I'll take up your cause as a robot, completely and utterly lacking any thoughts of my own, totally without free will, and spread it to anyone and everyone I know about how they're sexists like me who also don't love their mothers.

    Even if you look up the author, one of his other articles is "Yolo Akili interviews poet Franklin Abbott about radical faeries, radical male feminism, and radical love."

    He's totally not a radical at all
    I wish my hugging gay friend hadn't moved.
    Dirt Farmer

  3. #43
    meh Salomé's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    10,540

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    How would you interpret a heterosexual man doing these things?
    I think unsolicited comments from anyone are rude. I think uninvited groping is unacceptable no matter who is doing it and should be classed as assault. The whole point is that it is the behaviour that is unacceptable, irrespective of who is doing it.
    However, here we are seeing an attempt to read something group-specific into a behaviour which is unwarranted. If women grope other women (and men) and that isn't seen as a demonstration of "women owning men's bodies" then neither is the reverse true.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  4. #44
    meh Salomé's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    10,540

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    Individuals are of course responsible for their own behavior. I'm not certain of the frequency of women grabbing at men, and this may be an actual issue now, but it is possibly imitative behavior. There is a longer history of men intruding on women's physical space. I'd be interested to see a poll of how many guys have been groped compared to women. I'm a bit older than some here, but throughout my life there has been an issue of men intruding my physical space even though I am *very* introverted and basically never attend parties or clubs. I'm not in environments where it could be considered acceptable. I remember being pinched on the buns while standing in line as an 8th grader, piling my schoolbooks on my lap on the bus because a senior guy with tobacco rotten teeth loved to grab the junior high girls, having slumber parties at a friends house whose molester father sat in his Lazy Boy chair watching all of us in our pajamas, having college guys grabbing at me in the library while I got embarrassed and tried to run away, having professors sexualize their communication with me, touching me, making me uncomfortable and then treating me with contempt when I pulled away, having a creepy unknown man send me threatening sexualized poetry and stalk me, having the constant fear about a man named Joe who was stalking my mother and getting inside her home during the time I was in college, etc. I'm not mentioning the most personal stuff. I'm not convinced that this isn't entirely typical for a female, and I know many for whom it is much much much much worse. I personally know quite a few women who were molested and two who were brutally raped within an inch of their life. A friend of a friend was shot to death by her husband and a family member nearly escaped her husband killing her.

    All this is from a relatively normal life of a woman. I think many can tell similar stories. Do men typically have these kinds of histories with women as part of a normalized culture? So when girls at clubs start grabbing men's junk, do you think there is a remote possibility it could indirectly be the result of a patriarchal society? Even if in the specific instance they are responsible for their intrusive behavior?
    Ugh. We need to stop criminalising men just because women are the victims of most sexual crime. Criminals are criminals. Abusers are abusers. Misogynists are misogynists. Men are men. It doesn't help anyone to blur those lines and equate one group with another based on statistical probabilities. Men get abused too and suffer more violent crime. Gay men are the victims of perhaps more hate crime than anyone else.

    And honestly, to blame "the patriarchy" for "girls grabbing men's junk" is beyond absurd. These kinds of statements are why people think feminists are crazy. If feminism is nothing more than an exercise in deflecting blame then it is less than worthless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  5. #45
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    5
    Posts
    1,674

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SmileyMan View Post
    Let me be clear: The behaviour of which the article is topic is completely unacceptable, but to generalize its roots to such a fantastical degree is simply not possible and achieves nothing but to make the personal agenda of the author painfully apparent.
    Don't smear anyone else with that brush of yours (but yes, I agree).

    Quote Originally Posted by SmileyMan View Post
    I wonder if this is somehow related to RadFem nutbags basically wishing death upon the entire transgender community.
    That's an awkward mix of transphobia from one side and sexism from the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Ugh. We need to stop criminalising men just because women are the victims of most sexual crime.
    Whilst I'm sure there are many who criminalize men for this, fia was suggesting it's the patriarchy rather than men.

    It could be said the whole obsession with the way women look is a product of the patriarchy, which both men and women enforce (and criticizing women's appearance behind their back seems to be a popular hobby of both sexes). Male privilege is a different matter, and if women do something as much or more it's not a male privilege (such as this supposed androsexual culture of criticizing women's appearance openly).

  6. #46
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    isfp
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    8,595

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Ugh. We need to stop criminalising men just because women are the victims of most sexual crime. Criminals are criminals. Abusers are abusers. Misogynists are misogynists. Men are men. It doesn't help anyone to blur those lines and equate one group with another based on statistical probabilities. Men get abused too and suffer more violent crime. Gay men are the victims of perhaps more hate crime than anyone else.
    I agree with all of this, and do not consider my statement in conflict with it. I could give examples of other types of violations from other groups. My point is that the dynamics in a society that produce the more extreme behaviors influence everyone because there are underlying assumptions that are expressed in different degrees of severity. If you study misogyny or racism you learn that every person who lives in such a society is affected by it. It doesn't mean everyone is expressing it in a destructive manner, but it takes years of self reflection to rid oneself of the unconscious assumptions that these dynamics produce. One side effect of misogyny is that some women compensate with their own kinds of oppression towards men, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    And honestly, to blame "the patriarchy" for "girls grabbing men's junk" is beyond absurd. These kinds of statements are why people think feminists are crazy. If feminism is nothing more than an exercise in deflecting blame then it is less than worthless.
    [Edit] As a note to anyone reading my former post, I am NOT equating different external expressions of intrusion, some of which have innocent intentions, some of which are criminal. My purpose is to extract the underlying principle that can occur within a society and examine possible relationships between the underlying assumptions within that society. This process does not equate the motivations or external expressions of a behavior in any way.[/edit]

    I'm not suggesting a direct cause-and-effect, but a society that has a comfort level with intrusion from one group to another, which then begins to balance the power between the groups will likely see the formerly oppressed group begin to express some of the same dominant behaviors because that is what they have learned. I am not suggesting a direct connection, but an indirect cause-and-effect which requires panning out to see the largest picture.

    I don't think what is being discussed here is equivalent to criminal behaviors or most of anything I described, but I was just trying to demonstrate that there is still a power difference between the genders by describing some of the more striking imbalances that can occur within the "normal" experiences of life. Good grief, I hope others weren't assuming I was equating everything. Sometimes it helps to develop tangential concepts to get a more holistic concept of complex social dynamics.

    I actually don't have a definite certitude of conclusion on this topic, and if you look at my wording I asked if it was possible there was a connection. One question to ask is this: Where does entitlement to intrude into someone's physical space come from then? We know where traditional heterosexual male to female intrusion comes from, so where does female to female or homosexual male to female come from, etc.? Are they independently developed impulses with no connection whatsoever?


    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    It could be said the whole obsession with the way women look is a product of the patriarchy, which both men and women enforce (and criticizing women's appearance behind their back seems to be a popular hobby of both sexes). Male privilege is a different matter, and if women do something as much or more it's not a male privilege (such as this supposed androsexual culture of criticizing women's appearance openly).
    This makes sense, especially because obsession with one's external appearance is embracing objectification, fixating on being primarily decorative in one's contribution and value.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  7. #47
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    isfp
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    8,595

    Default

    Let me add one more illustration that could support the basic premise of the thread, and also shows that a connection between a history of male dominance in society can be expressed in traditional ways, and also through other assumptions of intruding into women's physical space through touching and unwelcome critiques of external appearance. (Don't let this derail the thread, but only extract the underlying principle which can demonstrate a parallel in a more well established topic.)

    I have recently noticed in my own behavior that I am somewhat more likely to greet individuals of certain minorities on the streets than I am to greet people of my same "race". I have realized that I have some subconscious guilt associated with a history of caucasian dominance in my culture. My behavior results from the same principle as violent, oppressive behaviors, but this does not mean my motivation or external behavior is the moral equivalent of a KKK member's actions. It means that everyone who lives in a racist society is influenced by racism. It means that it would be a good idea for me to continue in self-reflection and honesty to understand better its influence on me, so that I do not allow its influence to continue to develop in negative ways.

    The connection being presented in the thread is similar to the connection described above. It doesn't necessarily pass judgment on a behavior. it doesn't presume the nature of the motivation behind the behavior. It shows that it is always worth taking a step back to understand the implications of living in a society that has a history of power imbalance, and to understand how it can influence even innocent behaviors.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  8. #48
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    MBTI
    estj
    Enneagram
    378 sx/so
    Socionics
    esfp
    Posts
    3,036

    Default

    I was slapped on the ass by a chick once at a punk rock bar. I didn't care for it. I can understand why chicks would be pissed at guys doing this to them a lot. Personally, I dislike the notion that just because I have a cock I'm supposed to automatically be into you just because you're a chick. Wtf?
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  9. #49
    Senior Member bedeviled1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    207

    Default

    Personally I don't understand why a woman would even care what a gay guy thought about their looks. Kinda be like me caring about what the dude next to me at work thought about me. Don't give a s***t
    "May you live all the days of your life"

  10. #50
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    eNFJ
    Enneagram
    4w3 sx/so
    Socionics
    eNFJ Ni
    Posts
    11,443

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bedeviled1 View Post
    Personally I don't understand why a woman would even care what a gay guy thought about their looks. Kinda be like me caring about what the dude next to me at work thought about me. Don't give a s***t
    Because it's usually hurtful. Like someone has been picking you over and then suddenly lectures you about your "style". I don't like it from ANYONE. If I didn't ask, don't open your yap, especially if I don't know you. I can imagine anyone behaving that way -- called 'busybodies' in the old days -- would NOT be receptive to the same treatment. It's hypocritical and intolerably rude.

    I may not "care" about this person or their opinion, but it doesn't mean I won't walk away from it feeling like I've been bullied.
    eNFJ 4w3 sx/so 468 tritype
    Neutral Good
    EII-Fi subtype, Ethical/Empath, Delta/Beta
    RLUEI, Choleric/Melancholic
    Inquistive/Limbic
    AIS Holland code
    Researcher: VDI-P
    Dramatic>Sensitive>Serious

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 35
    Last Post: 06-05-2015, 08:32 PM
  2. Brains of gay men similar to heterosexual women
    By NewEra in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 60
    Last Post: 08-19-2010, 02:03 PM
  3. How are you being treated by men and women of different age (and why?)
    By UnitOfPopulation in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 08-29-2009, 03:01 PM
  4. Men (and women!) of Mystery
    By cm08 in forum What's my Type?
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 06-27-2009, 06:01 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO