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  1. #31
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    I've never had a problem with gay men or women. I wonder what additional interaction would make gay men and women have a problem with each other.
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  2. #32
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    Two wonderful cherries:

    It should also be noted that in this case, she was a black woman and he a white gay male, which makes this an eyebrow-raising dynamic as it invokes the psychological history of white men’s entitlement to black women’s bodies.
    Her story invoked rage amongst many other women in the audience, and an obvious silence amongst the gay men present. Their silence spoke volumes.
    I mean... I can't.... She... How can she...



    Unsolicited grabbing by any person is completely unacceptable, but to pin this behaviour on the "Patriarchy" is beyond retarded. Her arguments are based solely on anecdotal evidence, making every thing she wrote pure conjecture - i.e. an interpretation laden with wishful thinking. For another perspective, go no further than to the comments of the article:

    By the way, if we’re relying on anecdotes, I’ve been invasively touched and groped as well as had some really inappropriate things said to me by more straight women than I have by other gay men. I’ve had girls grab my junk, put their hands down my shirt, and make crass comments about my sex life (or what they think my sex life is like) all with the justification that it’s okay because I’m gay and just “one of the girls”.
    Is the above behaviour another product of the Patriarchy, or are you prepared to make women responsible for their own lives and actions, instead of walking the line of the RadFem agenda and treating them like helpless children? Let me be clear: The behaviour of which the article is topic is completely unacceptable, but to generalize its roots to such a fantastical degree is simply not possible and achieves nothing but to make the personal agenda of the author painfully apparent.

    What I find most amusing is the fact that the author is perpetuating damaging, homophobic stereotypes - it's as ironic as if Gypsies had had a history of persecuting Jews. I wonder if this is somehow related to RadFem nutbags basically wishing death upon the entire transgender community.

  3. #33
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmileyMan View Post
    What I find more interesting is how RadFem nutbags basically wish death upon the entire transgender community.
    They're quite cray cray about it, but that whole conflict is mired in complication.
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  4. #34
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    First of all, I'd like to thank everyone for participating and for being civilized to each other. That's such a relief after being hit over the head with politics for months on end.

    Quote Originally Posted by lauranna View Post

    Firstly, generally gay men touching/hugging/kissing me doesn't bother me if I know them. And random gay men wouldn't approach me... I'm too scary. I have one very good gay male friend who I have known since we were kids, he is 150% gay but he loves touching boobs/kissing women when he is drunk. It really doesn't bother me. He is funny and I love him.
    Ok, right, so let me ask another question, and it may seem impossibly naive of me, but here goes anyway:

    I've had some very strong emotional bordering-on-physical bonds with girls, usually xNTP/ISTPs, but I've never "gone there" with them because I felt it would be disingenuous and hurtful. It would hurt me because I know myself too well to NOT know I'm straight, and my attachment to them would tear me into little bits. I try to put myself in their shoes, how much it might hurt them, so I don't go there.

    HOWEVER -- I have had straight friends get drunk and make out (just the girls, really). That doesn't surprise me actually for many reasons. But a gay guy kissing on a girl? I guess (and forgive my assumption, if that is what it is) I always understood men to be WAAAAAY less flexible by natural design to such interactions. Women, even the more masculine ones, have a sense of nuture and emotion that most straight (AND GAY) men lack or refuse to tap into, so when I hear about a man who identifies as GAY or STRAIGHT, and then he gets drunk and acts COUNTER to that, I walk away in utter confusion.

    Does anyone have anything that might help me understand this better?


    The worst issue I had with my appearance/clothes being critiqued was by a drag queen in a gay bar. I wear whatever the hell I like. I'm not a slave to fashion, sometimes I feel like I want to be more butch in appearance, sometimes I want to be more femme. So on this particular night, I had on jeans, converse and a tight black military style shirt and my hair tied back. This drag queen hauled me up on the stage to abuse my appearance. Apparently I was betraying my femininity and I was 'such a lesbian' and why didn't I just shave my head if I was going to tie my hair back. (Er.... because I like it like this!) I was like WHAT THE FUCK?! You are a man in a dress and heels!! And I haven't commented on that! So yeah. I left shortly afterwards and haven't been back. I realise it was part of the show but really I didn't find it funny. Ultimately I will wear whatever the hell I like, because women should be able to wear shirts and if they want to men can wear dresses!
    Yeah, that was really not cool. Some people think that just because they're brassy and loud that it doesn't reek of insecurity. Good for you for not punching him out.

    In general on the gay scene there is a massive divide between gays and lesbians. Gay men are often (not always) just not interested in lesbians. I mean ultimately we have nothing in common. We don't fancy each other and we don't relate to each other. It comes down to if you are an open minded person or not. If I like someone I like them, I don't care if they are a gay man or not. If they are a gay man who is attitudey about lesbians I do hate it. One of my gay male friends recently invited me to his birthday and said, you are the only lesbian I am inviting because you are awesome, but I fucking hate lesbians. I was like, seriously you need to lighten up! Some of them are alright.

    Admittedly I am guilty of the same. I tend to hate sceney lesbians, and I also hate sceney gay men. I don't hate them on sight, just once they start being dicks. I'll give anyone a chance until they start being dicks.
    This is what I mean. I assumed (yet again) that people were just people and you could be friends with anyone based on personality and interests. My friends run the gamut from straight-laced to cray-cray, and I guess I didn't pay attention to what might divide them. Republican, Democrat, black, white, being people is what brings us together, right? Is that me wearing my NF badge over my eyes?

    The other reason there is such a divide on the scene is that gay men go out to get laid(Majority of the time). So if they are chatting to lesbians they are totally wasting their time.
    See, these sorts of statements clarify me. They SEEM basic enough, but I do overwrite, and I need a reminder. My twin just said, "ALL men go out to get laid." Notice "go out" like clubbing or bar-hopping, not just a guy going to a bookstore or something. If you're looking for it, you get it.

    I wish there was more of a bond between gay men and women, but the facts of the matter are that ultimately, we couldnt be more different. I have more in common with straight men or straight women than I do with gay men. Sometimes being 'other' or 'different' just isn't enough.

    And as for bisexuals, well I'm not sure I even have time to get started on them.
    I await with much interest.
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  5. #35
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    I suppose a relevant question to ask is whether these men are as judgmental about male fashion/physique/etc. To the extent that they are, then it is less about sexism and more about a preoccupation with appearance. I have, on more than one occasion, been chastised for my lack of style, etc.
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  6. #36
    Senior Member tkae.'s Avatar
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    Gay.
    Haven't touched any of a woman's erogenous zones since I was four.
    Don't giving a flying fuck about fashion.

    I'm a hugger once I know someone long enough or if they deserve one, usually women since men prefer hand shakes and that's not a socially acceptable thing for two men to do, but it's always a hug from the side and I always ask first. It's not anything like what this guy was talking about.

    I think the problem with the discussion in this thread and with the article in general is that it reduces gay males to a stereotype driven by the most obnoxiously visible members of its demographic, which are also a minority.

    There's a silent majority of gay males who aren't involved in any of the clubs, workshops, or classes the author of the article mentioned.

    As far as sexism and misogyny are concerned, I can be a bit misogynistic when the conversation towards feminism. For me, feminism has taken hold of the reins on the gay male stereotype and feminized it in order to bring about "conversation". Beyond just militant feminists steamrolling the halfway conscious feminists and driving an anti-masculine dialogue down everybody's throats, feminism in general has (until very, very recently) neglected the conversation of what it means to be a modern male (ironically, the website is dedicated to creating a "good men" while being driven by feminist logic, which is completely nonsensical since only from a feminist perspective is any kind of functional masculinity "good" or "bad). Statistics cite bad examples and ignore the good behaviors of decent boyfriends, husbands, and male members of society, who, like gay men, are the silent majority that get excluded because they don't fit the highly visible stereotype of men as wifebeating neanderthals.

    So from our perspective, feminism has demonized masculinity in a way. Just like the women of this thread take issue with women being told how to be women by gay men, men as a whole take issue with women telling them how to be good men. Yes, feminism has done some great things for the gay community, but not for all of us. Only for the ones who embrace their feminist rhetoric, which is an issue for gay males (again, the silent majority) who aren't effeminate, who don't fall cleanly into the stereotype that's been drawn out by feminist "dialogue", and who don't agree with the repercussions of feminist rhetoric.

    But that article is hilariously blinded by its own agenda. It just hop-skip-jumps straight over neutrality and demographics and leans in some imaginary world of implication. I even love how he phrases the question for gay men at one of his seminars and blatantly suggests they ARE misogynists instead of giving them the benefit of the (statistically likely) doubt:

    I think it’s relevant to extend these same questions now:

    How is your sexism and misogyny showing up in your own life, and in your relationships with your female friends, trans, lesbian, queer or heterosexual? How is it showing up in your relationship to your mothers, aunts and sisters? Is it showing up in your expectations of how they should treat you? How you talk to them? What steps can you take to address the inequitable representation of gay cisgender men in your community as leaders? How do you see that privilege showing up in your organizations and policy, and what can you do to circumvent it? How will you talk to other gay men in your community about their choices and interactions with women, and how will you work to hold them and yourself accountable?
    .

    Thanks man. You don't even know me and you've suggests I'm sexist, a misogynist, that I don't love my mother, and that I'll take up your cause as a robot, completely and utterly lacking any thoughts of my own, totally without free will, and spread it to anyone and everyone I know about how they're sexists like me who also don't love their mothers.

    Even if you look up the author, one of his other articles is "Yolo Akili interviews poet Franklin Abbott about radical faeries, radical male feminism, and radical love."

    He's totally not a radical at all
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  7. #37
    Senior Member Phoenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tkae. View Post
    Statistics cite bad examples and ignore the good behaviors of decent boyfriends, husbands, and male members of society, who, like gay men, are the silent majority that get excluded because they don't fit the highly visible stereotype of men as wifebeating neanderthals.
    Great post overall I'm going to zoom in on this particular issue because it speaks to me on a very personal level. I'm very much a sensitive, silent type myself and rarely speak up on issues of inclusion. I've noticed across the media, as well as in real life the over-reliance on gender labels to try to speak for majorities, or minorities. What goes missing is the individual himself.

    I also honestly have issues with the whole "sensitive, caring guy who's in touch with his emotions" stereotypes as well. I think the fact that goes missing in all these implications and generalizations is that perhaps there are no generalizations. The under-lying assumption is that generalizations and norms exist in the first place and then people try to fit others into those generalizations and norms because it makes them feel safe and comfortable, or whatever.

    My question is ... what if there is no generalization ... there is no typical .. there is no common and that every human is as an individual part of a greater whole. I would like people to look past a generalized view of people as a whole and start seeing them as multi-faceted individuals with their own specific traits and individual personalities.

    As a straight man, I have parts of me that are very feminine ... and I have parts that are as alpha as my avatar depicts. I have parts that haven't grown up since I was 15 and yet others that allow me to be responsible enough to hold a job, be independent and responsible. Perhaps individuality is important to me and sheep-like behaviour in itself isn't appealing - and I do understand why it would be for some people. However, deep down, I think the best way to get to know who someone truly is is to get them into a one on one and talk about their hidden sides and personal issues that are the underlying causes of their personal behaviour --- if they have them.

    I may be alone in thinking this, but just cuz one or even a million men behave a certain way doesn't mean that the 1 milionth and first's behaviour is still predictable.

  8. #38
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lauranna View Post
    So on this particular night, I had on jeans, converse and a tight black military style shirt and my hair tied back. This drag queen hauled me up on the stage to abuse my appearance. Apparently I was betraying my femininity and I was 'such a lesbian' and why didn't I just shave my head if I was going to tie my hair back. (Er.... because I like it like this!) I was like WHAT THE FUCK?! You are a man in a dress and heels!!
    Hilarious!
    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    After I lost five or ten pounds one summer, one of my best friends, who is gay but not flamboyant at all, gave me a long lecture about how I should not have lost the weight, and now I look worse than I did, and I had better not lose more weight. I was surprised that even my non-flamboyant, generally respectful, extremely feminist gay friend would fall into this mindset regarding male ownership of women's bodies, but there it was.

    Thoughts from the forum?
    I'm not seeing "male ownership of women's bodies" in this, ttytt. In my experience, straight women are far more likely to make these kinds of comments than (gay or straight) men. It's one of the reasons I find hanging out with women so dull. The constant comments about appearance - their own or other women's, or mine. Shut. The Fuck. Up. about your stupid ass! I DON'T CARE how big it looks in those pants!!
    As a gay man, I would classify his comments in this critical, female-on-female light. Plus, I think gay guys are just more sensitive to aesthetics for their own sake (i.e. in a non-sexual context).

    It's also possible that he was worried about you losing too much weight...? So many other interpretations to be made here than the one you're reaching for.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
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  9. #39
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Hilarious!
    I'm not seeing "male ownership of women's bodies" in this, ttytt. In my experience, straight women are far more likely to make these kinds of comments than (gay or straight) men. It's one of the reasons I find hanging out with women so dull. The constant comments about appearance - their own or other women's, or mine. Shut. The Fuck. Up. about your stupid ass! I DON'T CARE how big it looks in those pants!!
    As a gay man, I would classify his comments in this critical, female-on-female light. Plus, I think gay guys are just more sensitive to aesthetics for their own sake (i.e. in a non-sexual context).

    It's also possible that he was worried about you losing too much weight...? So many other interpretations to be made here than the one you're reaching for.
    Even so, the boob touching by gay men that happens, well way more than one would ever imagine is a touch strange. I seen 'em ask "can I" and I've seen 'em get asked if they want to. Seems gay boob touching is a hit.

  10. #40
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmileyMan View Post
    Is the above behaviour another product of the Patriarchy, or are you prepared to make women responsible for their own lives and actions, instead of walking the line of the RadFem agenda and treating them like helpless children? Let me be clear: The behaviour of which the article is topic is completely unacceptable, but to generalize its roots to such a fantastical degree is simply not possible and achieves nothing but to make the personal agenda of the author painfully apparent.

    What I find most amusing is the fact that the author is perpetuating damaging, homophobic stereotypes - it's as ironic as if Gypsies had had a history of persecuting Jews. I wonder if this is somehow related to RadFem nutbags basically wishing death upon the entire transgender community.
    Individuals are of course responsible for their own behavior. I'm not certain of the frequency of women grabbing at men, and this may be an actual issue now, but it is possibly imitative behavior. There is a longer history of men intruding on women's physical space. I'd be interested to see a poll of how many guys have been groped compared to women. I'm a bit older than some here, but throughout my life there has been an issue of men intruding my physical space even though I am *very* introverted and basically never attend parties or clubs. I'm not in environments where it could be considered acceptable. I remember being pinched on the buns while standing in line as an 8th grader, piling my schoolbooks on my lap on the bus because a senior guy with tobacco rotten teeth loved to grab the junior high girls, having slumber parties at a friends house whose molester father sat in his Lazy Boy chair watching all of us in our pajamas, having college guys grabbing at me in the library while I got embarrassed and tried to run away, having professors sexualize their communication with me, touching me, making me uncomfortable and then treating me with contempt when I pulled away, having a creepy unknown man send me threatening sexualized poetry and stalk me, having the constant fear about a man named Joe who was stalking my mother and getting inside her home during the time I was in college, etc. I'm not mentioning the most personal stuff. I'm not convinced that this isn't entirely typical for a female, and I know many for whom it is much much much much worse. I personally know quite a few women who were molested and two who were brutally raped within an inch of their life. A friend of a friend was shot to death by her husband and a family member nearly escaped her husband killing her.

    All this is from a relatively normal life of a woman. I think many can tell similar stories. Do men typically have these kinds of histories with women as part of a normalized culture? So when girls at clubs start grabbing men's junk, do you think there is a remote possibility it could indirectly be the result of a patriarchal society? Even if in the specific instance they are responsible for their intrusive behavior?
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