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  1. #11
    Senior Member You's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chana View Post
    in high school I had a lot of gay male friends, a few would be very physical with me, just come up to me and grab my boobs or butt like it was no big deal. I guess I didn't really care at the time either. one friend hugged me in the hallway at school and bit me on the neck super hard and left a bruise.

    I was always most bothered on unwarranted advice on how to be feminine from them. like "you should dress like this so guys will like you more!"
    Quote Originally Posted by Domino View Post
    I was out at a drag club one night with my ESFP friend and my ENFP sister. When we walked in, they both began commenting that the gay men were reacting to me specifically in a very strange manner. Either curious stares or outright hostility. I was surprised by it.

    One of them, loosened up by a few drinks, saw me walking down the stairs to the courtyard, said, "Why so sad? You're the most beautiful girl in the room." (That made me feel defensive of my sister and friend, like "HEY!")

    He put his arm around me, COVERED me in kisses, and said, "If I weren't gay, I'd **** you. Everyone in here wants to **** you." He said that ESFP was clearly a bi/swinger (read: would have sex with anything after a few drinks) and my sister was a duchess (read: so straight it hurts). He said I was possibly a lesbian which was okay with him because he loved lesbians, and he even grabbed another girl's ass (she was a lesbian, and she was there with her girlfriend -- we found her later and made sure she was okay; luckily, she was even-keeled and refrained from punching him, and she made a comment about gay men being "weird" about lesbians - "Either they love us or hate us.")

    "Fag Hag", Lesbian, or Straight Girl.

    Yes, this deserves a thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    My forum tradition of misunderstanding INTJs continues unabated. Sorry about that. Glad we're in agreement, anyway!

    From the experience of close friends of mine -- less of my experience -- your anecdote really rings true.
    the gay privilege. smfh.

    taken from my dashboard (im a comedian. friend with comedians. ie)
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  2. #12
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Would you like to be creepy, You, just for one night? lol
    eNFJ 4w3 sx/so 468 tritype
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  3. #13
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    From this article -- inspired by @Domino, who suggested that a thread be created around it.
    It all rings very true for me, and I know quite a few gay men who fall into this every once and a while. After I lost five or ten pounds one summer, one of my best friends, who is gay but not flamboyant at all, gave me a long lecture about how I should not have lost the weight, and now I look worse than I did, and I had better not lose more weight. I was surprised that even my non-flamboyant, generally respectful, extremely feminist gay friend would fall into this mindset regarding male ownership of women's bodies, but there it was.
    Thoughts from the forum?
    my thoughts
    - I would never fondle someone's body without their consent, male or female, few things piss me off more than people not respecting people's physical space. however, I've made out with a few women in the past, but they were the ones who wanted to make out and I thought "what the heck", not the other way around.
    - I do think I know more about women's fashion than most women do, or at least, I notice their major fashion blunders (such as clothing/hairstyle that doesn't match their face shape) but I generally don't say anything. that said, if you ask me if your dress makes you look fat and it does, I will tell you (on the flip side, I also compliment women a lot on things that straight men wouldn't notice)
    - because I'm not attracted to them, I'm also more willing to say things that a straight guy would be afraid to say, such as "stop it, you're acting like a spoiled cheerleader", the same way I would tell a guy if they're acting like an asshole
    - to be perfectly honest, I really don't like most women that much. nothing personal, but being neither my same gender as me nor the gender of my attraction, they simply lack any kind of use to me (the same could also be said of men who are neither attractive nor people I could relate to). thus, putting up with their negative characteristics is usually not worth it to me, though there are some exceptions (I know a few wonderful women in my life)
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  4. #14
    Senior Member Lightyear's Avatar
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    I have one very good gay friend but I guess he fits more into the gay activist/geek category (he is doing a MA in Statistics for crying out loud) and I don't think he would ever comment on my body weight or my looks in a negative way. It might also be a cultural thing, I can't really see an English person negativly commenting on another person's body in front of them, unless they are drunk or are trying to live out some truth-telling stereotype, it would just come across as mortifyingly rude.

    I don't tend to go to clubs (since they bore me to tears) or places that have an overly sexualized vibe so I never get any of these comments and I am very happy with that. Comments that indicate that someone sees me as a body first and as a person second would result in a death stare and me just walking away, I don't need any of that crap.

  5. #15
    Senior Member You's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino View Post
    Would you like to be creepy, You, just for one night? lol
    depends. how queer does one need to be to dandle the fairer sex's parts?
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  6. #16
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    my thoughts
    - I would never fondle someone's body without their consent, male or female, few things piss me off more than people not respecting people's physical space. however, I've made out with a few women in the past, but they were the ones who wanted to make out and I thought "what the heck", not the other way around.
    What was that like for you? Holistically, I mean.

    - I do think I know more about women's fashion than most women do, or at least, I notice their major fashion blunders (such as clothing/hairstyle that doesn't match their face shape) but I generally don't say anything. that said, if you ask me if your dress makes you look fat and it does, I will tell you (on the flip side, I also compliment women a lot on things that straight men wouldn't notice)
    "Does this make me look fat?" is a trap. Never ever answer it.

    - because I'm not attracted to them, I'm also more willing to say things that a straight guy would be afraid to say, such as "stop it, you're acting like a spoiled cheerleader", the same way I would tell a guy if they're acting like an asshole
    I could see the freedom there.


    - to be perfectly honest, I really don't like most women that much. nothing personal, but being neither my same gender as me nor the gender of my attraction, they simply lack any kind of use to me (the same could also be said of men who are neither attractive nor people I could relate to). thus, putting up with their negative characteristics is usually not worth it to me, though there are some exceptions (I know a few wonderful women in my life)
    So even as friends they fall short?
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  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightyear View Post
    I have one very good gay friend but I guess he fits more into the gay activist/geek category (he is doing a MA in Statistics for crying out loud) and I don't think he would ever comment on my body weight or my looks in a negative way. It might also be a cultural thing, I can't really see an English person negativly commenting on another person's body in front of them, unless they are drunk or are trying to live out some truth-telling stereotype, it would just come across as mortifyingly rude.

    I don't tend to go to clubs (since they bore me to tears) or places that have an overly sexualized vibe so I never get any of these comments and I am very happy with that. Comments that indicate that someone sees me as a body first and as a person second would result in a death stare and me just walking away, I don't need any of that crap.
    Yeah, I've only really known the academic gay guy sort that studies queer theory and gets self-righteous about anything having to do with the queer/feminist/race trifecta. Da lesbians and gays mostly get along in that arena, though I'd personally only be invited to social outings with the lesbians (and there seemed to be an agreed upon separatism going on there.)

    I've been abstractly aware of these problems for a while now, though, since there was a lot of discussion of gay not erasing male privilege etc.,.
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  8. #18
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC
    After all, the gay guys who do act like that, that I know personally, only do so because it's socially acceptable and generally gets more of a positive response than a negative one. Like it said in the article, they're socialized to think that it's practically their role in society to be the sassy tough-loving best friend to every girl they meet. Like in the "Sassy Gay Friend" YouTube videos.
    Yeah, I immediately thought of the same thing when I read the OP:



    It's still pretty funny though.

    I remember a few years back, Isaac Mizrahi doing red carpet interviews at the Golden Globes for E. He asked a lot of stars some inappropriate questions, but worst of all, groped Scarlett Johansson live on television (who BTW was only 21 at the time - extra gross). She was just left standing there laughing nervously, slightly bewildered about how to react. It was a source of debate afterwards - he didn't have negative intentions but it was still highly inappropriate. Needless to say, he no longer did red-carpet interviews for E! after that.

    Actually, here's the clip of it:



    I admit, I was once slapped on the ass by a gay friend at a party (although he was not out at the time and I had NO IDEA he was gay). I shot him a surprised and annoyed look and he just laughed. It confused me for a long time as to what he meant by it - I suppose now it makes sense. It's still weird though.
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  9. #19
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino View Post
    "Does this make me look fat?" is a trap. Never ever answer it.
    People always say this, but I don't get it. Wouldn't you rather know if you look fat in a dress, so you can save yourself the embarrassment of wearing it again and continuing to look fat?

    I must be the exception to a general rule about women in this regard...

    /derail
    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    my thoughts
    - I would never fondle someone's body without their consent, male or female, few things piss me off more than people not respecting people's physical space. however, I've made out with a few women in the past, but they were the ones who wanted to make out and I thought "what the heck", not the other way around.
    - I do think I know more about women's fashion than most women do, or at least, I notice their major fashion blunders (such as clothing/hairstyle that doesn't match their face shape) but I generally don't say anything. that said, if you ask me if your dress makes you look fat and it does, I will tell you (on the flip side, I also compliment women a lot on things that straight men wouldn't notice)
    - because I'm not attracted to them, I'm also more willing to say things that a straight guy would be afraid to say, such as "stop it, you're acting like a spoiled cheerleader", the same way I would tell a guy if they're acting like an asshole
    Excellent! This is all admirable, imo.
    - to be perfectly honest, I really don't like most women that much. nothing personal, but being neither my same gender as me nor the gender of my attraction, they simply lack any kind of use to me (the same could also be said of men who are neither attractive nor people I could relate to). thus, putting up with their negative characteristics is usually not worth it to me, though there are some exceptions (I know a few wonderful women in my life)
    So, you don't think that women have any insights to offer you, from being different from you?

    I dunno. I've known some gay men, especially older ones, who share this opinion with you, but I find it problematic. Oftentimes -- not necessarily with you! -- it can be fuel for strong, deep-rooted sexism.

    Obscure but relevant example: My mother is an organist, and most male organists are gay, and don't think women have much to offer. Oftentimes they hold a snobbish belief similar to the "men are chefs, women are cooks" idea: that female organists are frumpy old ladies who play the organ because someone's got to, at their church, and taught themselves how to play based on knowing a few years of piano -- whereas men are the TRUE artists, the college-educated organists who can play Messiaen and Saint-Saëns and can distinguish art from imitation. And that belief has held my mother back in the organ world for decades.
    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Yeah, I immediately thought of the same thing when I read the OP:

    (vid)

    It's still pretty funny though.
    God, I love those videos. That is, until the product placement started showing up. What a pain.
    I remember a few years back, Isaac Mizrahi doing red carpet interviews at the Golden Globes for E. He asked a lot of stars some inappropriate questions, but worst of all, groped Scarlett Johansson live on television (who BTW was only 21 at the time - extra gross). She was just left standing there laughing nervously, slightly bewildered about how to react. It was a source of debate afterwards - he didn't have negative intentions but it was still highly inappropriate. Needless to say, he no longer did red-carpet interviews for E! after that.
    I think I remember that bit of scandal -- but I don't really remember there being much of a public dialogue afterwards. More like "Jeez, Isaac Mizrahi, what's your problem?" Must have just missed it.
    I admit, I was once slapped on the ass by a gay friend at a party (although he was not out at the time and I had NO IDEA he was gay). I shot him a surprised and annoyed look and he just laughed. It confused me for a long time as to what he meant by it - I suppose now it makes sense. It's still weird though.
    Definitely weird. Especially weird that we've been socialized into thinking that it's different, with gay guys.
    Last edited by EJCC; 11-17-2012 at 07:10 PM. Reason: Spelling errors
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  10. #20
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino View Post
    What was that like for you? Holistically, I mean.
    it wasn't terrible. they wanted to do it and it was worth a try lol

    "Does this make me look fat?" is a trap. Never ever answer it.
    I answer it anyway.
    - they asked, if they want to trap themselves, their choice
    - I'm doing them a favor by being honest about their outfit at a time when no one else has the balls to.
    - offended reactions amuse me

    So even as friends they fall short?
    not most of the time, but the same could be said of most guys. just, some men are sexy, which is another reason to keep them around.
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