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  1. #1
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Default Israel-Palestine-Iran Conflict

    Warning: Can't get my thoughts straight.

    My view on the situation between Israel-Palestine.

    Recent events of the Flame Virus and Iran

    Some history of the Conflict

    There is a load of information out there if you are willing to search for it about current events. So far, there has been missiles going on and off, tweets being pushed back and forth, and images being used to propagate the scenes all over the place. Egypt wants no part in this arrangement and Iran condemns Israel for going crazy with the missiles.

    And you know what? Egypt, Libya, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia is nothing compared to this. Countries like Iran, Palestine (though not officially seen as a country,) and Israel may very well bring on a huge war (even a World War.) This is especially the case because America is allied with Israel and Israel has an ill-fated relationship with Iran and Palestine. We keep pushing our country to defend Israel without understanding the impact we'd have in the region.

    From this stance, Israel is just a big bully, with an even bigger bully from behind (America.)

    There are some recent events that deal with Palestine. Palestine wants to be recognized as a country, but Israel (and by extension,) the U.S. does not want that.

  2. #2
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    So when a country, Israel, gets hundreds of missiles lobbed at it within days, with many reaching into the heart of its metropolitan areas where they had previously never reached before, killing many innocent people, what would you expect them to do? What would you expect them to do? What would you expect them to do?

    Think clearly and answer. Think clearly and answer. Think clearly and answer.

  3. #3
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    So when a country, Israel, gets hundreds of missiles lobbed at it within days, with many reaching into the heart of its metropolitan areas where they had previously never reached before, killing many innocent people, what would you expect them to do? What would you expect them to do? What would you expect them to do?

    Think clearly and answer. Think clearly and answer. Think clearly and answer.
    More Palestinians have been killed in a yearly basis, if that is what you are asking.

    So please, let me ask you, why are we part of this "war" again when we are suppose to stabilize the region?

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    Stabilization doesn't mean peace and love, because those people will go on fighting for all eternity, which you may not understand. "Stabalization" means protecting our own interests in the middle east, which would include economic interests, oil, and insuring threatening countries don't obtain nukes. It does NOT mean making sure everyone in the middle east acts like "Civilized Westerners." Understand? There isn't a right or wrong in it, and trust me, our foreign policy is not based on such childish notions. The simple reality is, they will go on fighting, one attacking, and the other (rightfully) reacting.

    The tendency for people to one-side the issue (usually against Israel for illogical reasons) is of the same childishness, and born of an ignorance that explains why the populace has no say in foreign policy, at all.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Joehobo's Avatar
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    The only reason why the US gets involved is to protect its own interests. Doesn't matter how large the body count is, as long as the dollars keep rolling in. That's the foreign policy. The rest is all idealistic propaganda which doesn't make up the reality of the countries actions. Israel has a right to defend itself given recent attacks, Palestinians have alot of hate, and Iran is supplying them with rockets among other things to wage a proxy war because of Israel collapsing Iran's economy, since them obtaining more nuclear material for whatever purpose is perceived as a threat to Israeli dominance.

    The whole situation is basically a gigantic self serving cluster fuck of hatred, fear, greed and power.

  6. #6
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rail Tracer View Post
    More Palestinians have been killed in a yearly basis, if that is what you are asking.
    Its kinda not what he was asking. Hamas refuses to renounce terrorism or accept the existence of Israel, and they launched missiles at Israel....so what would you do differently in their situation right now?

    I'm no unconditional or uncritical Israel worshipper, but labeling Israel's response in this instance as 'bullying' reminds me of this song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGXapsAaAO4

  7. #7
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    I guess, walk the plank.

    What happens after? At least, though, it stops.

    One way, or the other. For me, or for everyone.

    It'd be a long walk. Caravan?

  8. #8
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rail Tracer View Post
    From this stance, Israel is just a big bully, with an even bigger bully from behind (America.)

    There are some recent events that deal with Palestine. Palestine wants to be recognized as a country, but Israel (and by extension,) the U.S. does not want that.
    It's sooooo much more complicated than this.

    Of course the Palestinians have suffered so much and they deserve to have a country of their own. But the situation as it stands (even before the present escalation), makes it impossible for this to happen. There are people (and issues) on both sides stopping this and the ordinary Palestinian is stuck in the middle. Have you asked yourself, does the average Gaza resident want Hamas to pick this fight, knowing the inevitable Palestinian casualties that will result? I bet not, but Hamas does it anyway, without consideration of their own people's lives.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rail Tracer View Post
    More Palestinians have been killed in a yearly basis, if that is what you are asking.
    True but it's not fair to evaluate the relative guilt based on this. Hamas would happily kill many more Israelis, it's just they lack the resources to do so. Along with their superior military and intelligence resources, Israel is also well prepared with missile defence systems, air raid warnings, bomb shelters and medical staff trained and very experienced in treated wounds from bomb and missile trauma. Israel's ability to prevent their people dying has nothing to do with the level of blame they deserve. It is plain that the Palestinians suffer more, but suffering can't be measured in statistics; it's qualitative. Also be aware that there is a difference with targeting civilians and unintentionally (albeit carelessly) killing them the crossfire.

    You don't hear about it but rockets are fired into Israel all the time and Israelis die regularly. I was there in 2008 and about once every week or 2 an Israeli would die from a rocket attack. The Israelis are actually a hell of a lot more restrained than you think. What other country would sit back and do nothing if this happened on a regular basis? The point is, we only hear about it when there is an escalation and Israel is made to sound like the instigators and aggressors.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm quite ambivalent about Israel's retaliation - their hands are far from clean in this. Gaza is densely populated and there are few places you could hit in a strike without having civilian casualties. I struggle to know what I would do. The rockets must be stopped but I don't believe civilian lives should be brushed aside as collateral damage. The whole things pains me...
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  9. #9

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    I dont even try to analyse the middle east anymore really, its like some terrible mutually assured destruction pact between two insane factions.

    The palestinians are so, so far gone in terms of trauma and oppression that I doubt they are likely to be ever able to constitute anything approaching a legitimate authority on a world scale, I dont know if Arafat's PLO could have been capable of the sort of change and credibility that the ANC was (people forget they were formerly engaged in armed struggle and condemned as terrorists too) but it had more chance than what remains now.

    The israelis are scary, damn scary, I dont think that many people in the west, especially America, think too hard about the sort of racialised ethno-nationalist consciousness which is at the heart of zionism and israel.

    I do think there's plenty of reasons why they are more legitimate than the palestinians presently, their missile defence screen intercepts rockets mid-flight in the air and their counter strikes are pretty surgical in contrast to the palestinians rocket attacks. The public disdain there is for Israel is largely a result of the most well funded and one of the most sophisticated military forces in the world taking on a force of largely irregular fighters who are civilian in character and composition.

    Although, I really question the extent to which should the Israeli's "palestinian problem" ever end, one way or another and I fear with some kind of horrific mass death and displacement of the palestinians, that they will be able to demilitarise and become a normal society, its not just a question of whether or not the neighbouring states like Iran would ever change sufficiently to accept co-existence either. The Israelis will be on the search for the "next threat" or could even decide to seek vengence for past wrongs. I'd really like to think that there's nothing to worry about but I dont think its the case at all and I started thinking it a long time ago when the peace brokers in the power structures on both the palestine and israel sides where assasinated.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    It's sooooo much more complicated than this.

    Of course the Palestinians have suffered so much and they deserve to have a country of their own. But the situation as it stands (even before the present escalation), makes it impossible for this to happen. There are people (and issues) on both sides stopping this and the ordinary Palestinian is stuck in the middle. Have you asked yourself, does the average Gaza resident want Hamas to pick this fight, knowing the inevitable Palestinian casualties that will result? I bet not, but Hamas does it anyway, without consideration of their own people's lives.


    True but it's not fair to evaluate the relative guilt based on this. Hamas would happily kill many more Israelis, it's just they lack the resources to do so. Along with their superior military and intelligence resources, Israel is also well prepared with missile defence systems, air raid warnings, bomb shelters and medical staff trained and very experienced in treated wounds from bomb and missile trauma. Israel's ability to prevent their people dying has nothing to do with the level of blame they deserve. It is plain that the Palestinians suffer more, but suffering can't be measured in statistics; it's qualitative. Also be aware that there is a difference with targeting civilians and unintentionally (albeit carelessly) killing them the crossfire.

    You don't hear about it but rockets are fired into Israel all the time and Israelis die regularly. I was there in 2008 and about once every week or 2 an Israeli would die from a rocket attack. The Israelis are actually a hell of a lot more restrained than you think. What other country would sit back and do nothing if this happened on a regular basis? The point is, we only hear about it when there is an escalation and Israel is made to sound like the instigators and aggressors.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm quite ambivalent about Israel's retaliation - their hands are far from clean in this. Gaza is densely populated and there are few places you could hit in a strike without having civilian casualties. I struggle to know what I would do. The rockets must be stopped but I don't believe civilian lives should be brushed aside as collateral damage. The whole things pains me...
    Thank you for speaking some sense. The media in this country is really becoming a monstrous progenitor of ultimately dangerous ignorance.

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