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  1. #61
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patches View Post
    I don't disagree with you regarding the 'Don't meddle in the affairs of other countries' policy, as I tend to lean pretty Libertarian on these kinds of issues. But I hate this constant blathering about the impact of the media. The right complains about the impact of the liberal media, the left complains about the impact of Fox news, Israel supporters complain that Palestinian-slanted news sources are lies, Palestinians complain that Israeli news is lies. Everyone accuses everyone else of being tools of their respective 'competitor' news sources.

    Most of us posting here are in situations where the flow of information is practically unlimited. Between the plethora of news channels and the endless stream of information available on the internet... I think it's narrow minded to assume that every person you disagree with is simply ill-informed.
    Ordinarily I would agree with you. It certainly is problematic to claim people don't know what they're talking about rather than accept they have a legitimate argument. And I also get sick of people blaming everything on the media. But I feel like this conflict is an exception in many ways.

    The media shapes the impressions of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict so much - not just by what the media covers but what informations and perspectives it leaves out. Have you seen this comparison of British and American media coverage? The difference in the language used to describe events and in the way they humanise one side or the other is startling. Start watching at 3:15 if you want to skip to the crux of the matter:



    This documentary is much more critical of Israel and American news organisations portrayals of events, but the European media has the same level of bias toward the Palestinians. We seem to get mainly UK media reports on the conflict here on NZ news, so I'm often frustrated by a lack of humanising stories about the Israelis.

    The misconceptions the media create are not necessarily intentional either. It can be a simple as not reporting on what happens on the 'down' periods when there isn't outright conflict going on. People then tend to mentally fill in those gaps: often they either think all out war has continued during that period or they think there hasn't been any conflict at all. Both are inaccurate and they shape the way people react to the media reports they do receive. For example: if you believe that conflict has been intense and constant up until recent events, you're going to see Israel's present actions as more justified (ie. it's not just aggression coming out of nowhere), but if you think it's been completely peaceful, the Israelis look inexcusably ruthless and bloodthirsty.

    Knowing about it the history and the issues in play is also incredibly important. There are some crucial aspects that you must at least be vaguely aware of for any of it to even make sense, and I don't think the media does enough to outline it. The conflict parameters have shifted so much over the last 60 odd years but people forget about how and why things have changed. The media only report on immediate events and assume people will know why it is happening and how it came to this - which they often don't.

    Do you think the Palestinian government truly wants a two state solution? Did they not decline/walk away from several two-state proposals? I don't doubt that the Palestinian people want that, but not the government.

    Even if they did, I don't see a two-state system being worked out mostly because of Jerusalem. Both states want Jerusalem. Israel agreed to a solution which specified Jerusalem as international - belonging to neither. I was under the impression that Palestine refused because they want Jerusalem. But Israel will never agree with any solution that put Jerusalem in the hands of Palestine. Hence the stalemate.
    Arafat walked away from negotiations and I've read varying accounts as to why. Some say there was a misunderstanding; others say his ego got in the way; some even say he wanted to prolong the conflict because it was more beneficial to him as a leader. It's hard to know what really happened, but apparently many of the other Palestinian negotiators were furious about how he went about it.

    And yes, I think even Hamas realise this can't go on forever. The leaders must know it's not possible for them to retake greater Israel/Palestine and that the Israelis are not leaving. I think they actually want to make a deal but don't know how to appease (delusional) hard-liners or justify any peaceful shift in policy without looking weak. I think a lot of what these rocket attacks are about is a show of strength, so that when a (long term or short term) ceasefire/peace deal is eventually negotiated they can drive a harder bargain with Israel. Although, I may be wrong and they're all insane and delusional, but I think it's too easy to dismiss them as being so.

    There is a plan to deal with Jerusalem that can work. In fact the way the borders of Palestinian territories will be determined, the way the reparations/compensation will be outlined, the way the refugee issue will be addressed etc, basically the reality of how all the broad issues will be resolved, is already pretty much understood and accepted by the governments and much of the population of both sides (again, sometimes behind closed doors). A lot of the reason it doesn't go ahead is that lingering anger, fear and distrust. Neither wants to give and inch because they fear being screwed over.
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  2. #62
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    The Guardian (UK newspaper), which is very pro-Palestinian and anti-Israel, has posted quite a few editorials and articles which readers can comment on, but the frustrating thing is that they seem to publish very little from moderates on either side. So the two big feature commentary pieces were from a Hamas official, and from an Israeli government official. Both of which were basically blatant propaganda and which readers responded to as such.

    I mean, is there no one out there capable of taking an honest look at both sides of the issue?

    Seriously, I fully expect the FICTIONAL John Le Carre book I'm reading to be more unbiased.
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  3. #63
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    What is this strawman bullcrap? I never said "we should be grateful Israel hasn't nuked Gaza", I was merely pointing out the absurdity of your analogy "calling up your friends to beat someone into a coma for spitting on you".

    Here's a better analogy. You randomly chuck rocks over the fence into my backyard where my children play, and after you don't stop when I tell you to, I go into your house and punch you in the face.

    I suppose not the most gentleman way to go about it, but you kind of had it coming.
    A better analogy would be that I occupy your house and leave you living in the street, then kick you every time you walk past you.

    Israel is an occupying power, living on stolen land, which systematically blockades Gaza, denies Palestinians statehood, and regularly murders their civilians.

    I feel bad for ordinary Palestinian citizens caught in the crossfire of all this bloodshed.
    This is as useful as saying "I feel bad for the victims of 9/11, but if America hadn't been bombing Muslim countries for years, it wouldn't have happened".

    Ultimately, you are justifying terrorism against civilians.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I suppose this puts them on a par with the Jews, then.

  6. #66
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  7. #67
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    This documentary is much more critical of Israel and American news organisations portrayals of events, but the European media has the same level of bias toward the Palestinians. We seem to get mainly UK media reports on the conflict here on NZ news, so I'm often frustrated by a lack of humanising stories about the Israelis.
    The media in oz also seems decidedly pro-Palestine, although maybe that's because I watch a lot of Al Jazeera. It's always "Israel launched a devastating strike in Gaza killing 5 and wounding 14. The attack was in response to repeated rocket attacks." All of the focus on "de-escalation" seems to be on Israel to deliver.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    And yes, I think even Hamas realise this can't go on forever. The leaders must know it's not possible for them to retake greater Israel/Palestine and that the Israelis are not leaving. I think they actually want to make a deal but don't know how to appease (delusional) hard-liners or justify any peaceful shift in policy without looking weak. I think a lot of what these rocket attacks are about is a show of strength, so that when a (long term or short term) ceasefire/peace deal is eventually negotiated they can drive a harder bargain with Israel. Although, I may be wrong and they're all insane and delusional, but I think it's too easy to dismiss them as being so.
    I haven't done much research into the matter, but my impression is that Hamas will get a lot more international financial/military support by being hostile to Israel. If they compromise their best avenue of aid will be Israel itself. If they remain jihadist martyrs they'll get aid from a lot of cashed-up arab states and ones (like Egypt) looking for islamist political cred.

  8. #68
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Che Parla View Post
    A better analogy would be that I occupy your house and leave you living in the street, then kick you every time you walk past you.

    Israel is an occupying power, living on stolen land, which systematically blockades Gaza, denies Palestinians statehood, and regularly murders their civilians.
    And because of this I believe Palestinians are well within their rights to strike back, but only against combatants. The moment you target civilians you de-legitimise your cause. Actually I probably wouldn't entirely blame them for attacking the settlers even though they are civilians, because they steal Palestinian land and deliberately provoke and invite conflict. I did a political tour (of sorts) to Hebron in the West Bank and I left there very much disliking the settlers. They are some scary people.

    This is as useful as saying "I feel bad for the victims of 9/11, but if America hadn't been bombing Muslim countries for years, it wouldn't have happened".

    Ultimately, you are justifying terrorism against civilians.
    Wait, what? Doesn't this completely contradict what you've just been saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    The media in oz also seems decidedly pro-Palestine, although maybe that's because I watch a lot of Al Jazeera. It's always "Israel launched a devastating strike in Gaza killing 5 and wounding 14. The attack was in response to repeated rocket attacks." All of the focus on "de-escalation" seems to be on Israel to deliver.
    I would expect that Al Jazeera would be biased, just as I would expect Israeli media to be biased. But I would hope that bias would be minimised and that all efforts should be made to present the other side. It's important to develop empathy for your 'enemy' and the media is a central factor in this.

    I think all Western countries apart from Canada and America are decidedly pro-Palestinian. They inevitably support the underdog, which is perfectly understandable, but I wish they weren't so closed off and rigid in that view. I remember when I came back from Israel someone asked me, "Do the Israelis know how much they oppress the Palestinians?". It was such a loaded question I didn't even know how to begin to answer it.

    I haven't done much research into the matter, but my impression is that Hamas will get a lot more international financial/military support by being hostile to Israel. If they compromise their best avenue of aid will be Israel itself. If they remain jihadist martyrs they'll get aid from a lot of cashed-up arab states and ones (like Egypt) looking for islamist political cred.
    Yes, this is likely. They get financial support form Iran because they take an aggressive, Islamist stance. That money could dry up if they made compromises.
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    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

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  9. #69
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    BTW, we actually seem to have good signs. I'm very cautiously optimistic.

    Hamas-Israel ceasefire takes hold but mistrust runs deep
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  10. #70
    Member Isis's Avatar
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    The Washington Post is so f'n biased- Zionist centric to even BEGIN to try to explain away 42 dead babies that we know as I write this is despicable. The Zionist Illegal Occupation of Palestine. The continual genocide perpetrated upon Palestine. The war crimes and siege is the doings of a sadistic and psychotic Zionist regime that is SO FAR AWAY FROM THE TENETS OF JUDAISM- it could be called it's OPPOSITE.

    FREE PALESTINE!
    FREE JEWS FROM THE GRIPS OF ZIONISM SO THAT THEY CAN TAKE THEIR RELIGION BACK!

    JUSTICE TRUTH AND FREEDOM FOR PALESTINE!

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