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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    And to all you assholes who always ask "Why should we help Israel in their wars?", I ask you how is our getting involved in keeping peace between them and Hamas any better? It's still meddling, meddling that i don't feel we should bother with either way. But if you're the kind of anti-Israel brainless drone the media wants you to be, I guess the latter options seems better to you.. in spite of any hypocrisy.
    It's not hypocrisy at all, the West funds and props up Israel already. To stop "meddling" by your logic, would be to withdraw all aid from them. Until then, they have every responsibility for Israel's actions, and should put a limit on them.

  2. #52
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patches View Post
    Do you think the Palestinian government truly wants a two state solution? Did they not decline/walk away from several two-state proposals? I don't doubt that the Palestinian people want that, but not the government.

    Even if they did, I don't see a two-state system being worked out mostly because of Jerusalem. Both states want Jerusalem. Israel agreed to a solution which specified Jerusalem as international - belonging to neither. I was under the impression that Palestine refused because they want Jerusalem. But Israel will never agree with any solution that put Jerusalem in the hands of Palestine. Hence the stalemate.
    This is exactly the kind of all-or-nothing approach I mentioned earlier, which has left the Palestinians with next to nothing. If they continue to consider exclusive control of Jerusalem as more important than statehood, they will continue to have neither. I thought the international option was a good compromise, leaving the city accessible to adherants of all three religions in which it is important. Palestinians do not have a monopoly on refusal to compromise, though; just look at our own (U.S.) government. They, like we, must demand greater accountability in our government.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  3. #53
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    This is exactly the kind of all-or-nothing approach I mentioned earlier, which has left the Palestinians with next to nothing. If they continue to consider exclusive control of Jerusalem as more important than statehood, they will continue to have neither. I thought the international option was a good compromise, leaving the city accessible to adherants of all three religions in which it is important. Palestinians do not have a monopoly on refusal to compromise, though; just look at our own (U.S.) government. They, like we, must demand greater accountability in our government.
    Maybe the best solution would be to level Jerusalem (after evacuating it), then irradiate the ground so no one can live there for 10,000 years. 10,000 years should be long enough for the Abrahamic religions to die off, right?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #54

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    I'm praying the reports of the radio of a ceasefire are going to be confirmed.

    I do think that the reports that palestinians have been terrified by a leaflet drop into leaving their hopes and going to the heart of Gaza are concerning, I also agree that the Israelis have broken the accords reached before now, killed palestinians, then declared for peace again, repeatedly, with only the palestinians losing but I think I want some kind of stop to the killing now. Other questions can wait.

    I've been treated to so many pictures of tower blocks going up in falls of fire and smoke while at the gym.

  5. #55
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    this is what i think should be done:

    1. In face of the UN and international organizations, the transfer of international Aid and contribution fund should be navigated to the PLO (the majority sits are still in control via the Fatah).
    -> Thus allowing the Fatah to go into Gaza and be the ones rebuild, as heroes, hopefully securing their rise to power in the 2013 elections (or the one after that).
    2. The Israeli parliament must lower it's minimum mandate requirements for a sit, thus allowing the rising assortment of smaller parties to enter.
    -> Thus creating an alternative block to combine with the Arab Israeli vote and compete with the orthodox block, so that a coalition capable of taking the settlements can maintain itself.
    3. A UN acknowledgement of Palestine as a sovereign state.
    -> Thus providing the Palestinian non-violent control over their natural gas reserves, giving them a peaceful negotiation card within the debate over boarders.
    4. Negotiate a shared tourism pact, where a certain percentage of any increase in tourism beyond the current state from either party will go into a joined fund, and be distributed 50/50.
    -> Thus insuring that both parties have an invested financial interest in providing security and enabling outside investments within the other's side to enjoy religious & political tourism, and enabling the PLO to maintain it's officers wage and gain control with time, as to be less corruptible by other organizations.
    5. An Israeli immigration reform, removing the minimum stay time for qualified immigrants, and enabling Palestinians lacking a criminal record to gain Israeli student visa's.
    -> The later accelerating the financial development within Gaza and the West Bank.
    6. Changing the Israeli elections to an e-democracy, where any citizen can vote regardless of residence, enabling a global participation of the Jewish diaspora within the Israeli elections.
    -> In the short term creating a demographic very much concerned with how Israel is viewed internationally.
    -> In the long term insuring Israel's ability to survive it's internal demographic crisis (and thus avoiding Orthodox control over the state).

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Maybe the best solution would be to level Jerusalem (after evacuating it), then irradiate the ground so no one can live there for 10,000 years. 10,000 years should be long enough for the Abrahamic religions to die off, right?
    You would probably still get a pilgrim or two who would risk their neck to go to the ruins of Jerusalem, Mecca or Medina well aware they would probably have mere hours before the radiation kills them just because they believe their religious belief is worth sacrificing their life for. Besides, religion would still live on elsewhere or mutate into an equally primitive radioactive monster (a radioactive Abrahamic religion.)

    My solution: Make all religious institutions non-tax exempt in all secular countries and stop giving aid to theocracies of differing faith. In the former, the cash struck churches and mosques in the West and Far East would either need to be completely propped up on behalf of other corporations (perhaps completely changing in the process) or putting the squeeze on their worshippers for money which causes a return to home worship because they cannot afford to pay. I envision something similar to explosive decompression but it may not be as bad as that. Best case scenario: Total fragmentation of religion held together by mere rich benefactors and free internet website hosting.
    For denying theocratic states and "highly religious" states aid (however that doesn't mean preventing foreign interest in the region) the people would seriously have to consider pulling their heads out of their asses and learn to play the game of taking care of yourself and accepting responsibility rather than bitching about it and hiding all your suffering until the pretence of foreign religious intolerance. They would need to open their minds a little and in the process maybe (just maybe) that they did it all without God's help and that religion should not be as important in state affairs. Either that or they will point fingers and engage in in-fighting. Other countries do not intervene unless their interests are at threat and no aid - the people need to learn from their pain. If you're lucky they'll ask why God has abandoned them and in their disillusionment become alienated from their faith. Other outcomes exist but to me are the two most likely (probably because they're a bit broad!)

    As for Israel-Palestine: Don't provide aid to either of them and let them fight it out. Threaten to cut any aid to any other countries in the region who try and intervene. If Palestine can win, good for them. If not then good for Israel. Besides there are plenty of happy Palestinians and Arabs living in the Israeli state. As for my personal opinion: I support Israel. They may be an "American puppet state" but they can do the most with the region. The Palestinians are seemingly too insular and backwards to be much better than the region of 1910 whilst Israel (in part due to their corporate ties) have been reasonably forward thinking. Plus, I attribute some of their success to not being as religiously obsessed.

    My two cents.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    This is exactly the kind of all-or-nothing approach I mentioned earlier, which has left the Palestinians with next to nothing.
    I would say being expelled from their land by force also played some part in them having "next to nothing".

  8. #58
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Che Parla View Post
    Just to clarify, are you saying we should be grateful Israel hasn't nuked Gaza, just because they can? In that case I guess Putin and the Chinese Communist Party deserve a Nobel Prizes, because there are still some buildings standing in Chechnya and Tibet.
    What is this strawman bullcrap? I never said "we should be grateful Israel hasn't nuked Gaza", I was merely pointing out the absurdity of your analogy "calling up your friends to beat someone into a coma for spitting on you".

    Here's a better analogy. You randomly chuck rocks over the fence into my backyard where my children play, and after you don't stop when I tell you to, I go into your house and punch you in the face.

    I suppose not the most gentleman way to go about it, but you kind of had it coming.

    Seeing as Hamas is the elected government of the Gaza Strip, then "surgical strikes on Hamas "infrastructure" can mean a school, hospital, or car driving through the street.
    Maybe it would be easier for Israel to avoid dropping bombs near schools and hospitals if HAMAS didn't use them as launching sites for their missiles against Israeli civilians.

    I feel bad for ordinary Palestinian citizens caught in the crossfire of all this bloodshed. I would guess many of them just want to go on with their lives. Unfortunately, the sad fact of life is that their own government callously places them in the path of danger, and for you to put the blame for the civilian casualties squarely on the hands of Israel is ridiculously narrow minded.
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

  9. #59
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    I'm watching Anderson Cooper talking on TV and in the background there is a war going on.

    I went out earlier today and on the inbounding train I saw an amount of structures that looked like car frames. No one around here produces cars on a manufacturing scale, so I'm wondering what's going on...

    I remember watching a lady journalist pack up her things and leave the space she was occupying because the explosions in the background were too unnerving for her to stand.

    Kids growing up around war are going to take on a role their parents don't seem to condemn.

    It's like a generation leaves, and another takes it place. I hear the phrase 'cease fire' being tossed around...yet the next generation are living in conditions that make that phrase seem like a punchline to a morbid joke.

    I'd have thought the world wants to settle its differences...it seems I'm naive.

    In the meantime, what about me?

    "Marsha, Marsha, Marsha!"

  10. #60
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Che Parla View Post
    I would say being expelled from their land by force also played some part in them having "next to nothing".
    I suppose this puts them on a par with the Jews, then.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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