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  1. #41
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    The problems started with the creation of Israël.

    The problem will be solved with the dismantling of Israël.

    Anyway, I think that in one generation or two from now, Israël will have disappear.
    You could just as easily say the problems started when the Romans destroyed the Second Temple. The point is you can endlessly look back and lament over wrongs that have been done for thousands of years. It happened, and regardless of anyone's opinion on the matter, it cannot be undone. Moving forward is the only option.

    You seem to be either advocating ethnic cleansing or for two of the world's most ardent enemies to live along side one another. Both are unthinkable. Wake up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    This is a major problem for the Palestinians, namely that they cannot even get their own house in order. Disagreement between Fatah and Hamas weakens both the Palestinian cause and their ability to reach their goals. Some Palestinians have come to realize that terrorism and violence is not the way to succeed, but their voices are often drowned out by those who prefer these options. Until they can speak with a clear and unified voice, they will make little progress. As long as their program is to shoot rockets at Israel, they undercut their case and throw away the potential for goodwill from many parts of the world.
    Yes, you're so right. We never get to hear what the moderates think.

    The problem in Gaza is that the people are oppressed and don't dare question Hamas. The keep their heads down and try and get through the day, and who could blame them. Until Gaza is a proper democracy and the people have real freedom of speech, they can't make political progress.

    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Che Parla View Post
    My point is, why worry about the logistics of something impossible? Israel is as much under threat from the Palestinians as of the US being ivaded by Cuba. There are things that could be done here and now, to prevent this kind of bombing campaign by Israel, and improve western relations with the Middle East to all of our benefit, but we don't do them. Because of a small but powerful pro-Israel lobby.

    When Obama won people thought he would stand up to them, and to an extent he has, but in this case it seems they have decided to test him upon reelection, and he isn't seeming to respond.
    Perhaps you don't remember the second intifada. Israel was under plenty of threat from the Palestinians then. And as I said, Israelis die on a regular basis from rocket attacks. It doesn't take an invasion for damage to be done. Do you think that any country would consider even a small number of regular deaths due to terrorism or conflict acceptable? And don't get me started on how many plots they foil through intelligence and careful screening and monitoring - we have no idea how many attacks have been prevented. No country that is attacked takes it lying down. Also the Israelis remember well how it has gone down in even the recent past and how easily it can get out of control. This makes them so uncompromising (if not ruthless) in their defence.

    As for Obama, the American government is forced to appease the Evangelists and American Jews, just as the Israeli government is forced to appease certain groups. Any President would have his hands tied in the same way.

    However, I totally agree with your criticism that Israel has violated numerous UN resolutions. It is unacceptable. I also think the veto option for the permanent members of the Security Council is a major hurdle for peace in this conflict and a whole range of others. The way Russia and China have blocked so many resolutions in regards to the present Syrian Civil War, is not all that different to what the US has done for years in regards to Israel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    A potential "solution" to the internal reality (with it's own problems) that i can see happening, is a combination of e-democracy and immigration reforms, that would allow eligible immigrants to gain a full Israeli citizenship through non-local-means, in a trip that could possibly be no more consuming then the Birthsight trip many Jewish-Americans take today, thus gaining a citizenship, and a right to vote in the Israeli elections through online means, regardless of residence.
    The requirement for this to work are that contributions from Jewish communities will be able to account for reduced national income form taxation, and that more members of the diaspora join the army - while Israel may not have enough of a population to withdraw the draft and rely on a volunteer army, the diaspora as a whole might.

    If this happens, Israel can take a very different role, an anchor rather then a home, a political and military foothold for the wider Jewish diaspora. This would be good news for the palestinians in the short term - such a government is quite likely to care more about how it looks to the world then about matters of defense. In the long term, it means Israel is to become an ethnic government, with it's regional basis only symbolic. The newly emergent Palestinian diaspora throughout Europe might take the same route, and many others in the future.
    This sort of approach might be appropriate. After all, the majority of the Jewish diaspora are just as invested in Israel, and Palestinian diaspora in Palestine, as the actual citizens residing in those places.
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  2. #42
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Che Parla View Post
    If a guy spits in my face in the street, maybe I have the right to punch him in the face and the law would look leniently upon me.

    If once he falls on the floor, I keep kicking him, then call my friends to kick him too, until he is in a coma, then the law would no longer look leniently on me, regardless of his "intentions" towards me.
    Oh please. Israel is a nuclear power with one of the best trained militaries in the world. The equivalent of what you describe would be A LOT more than surgical strikes on HAMAS infrastructure.

    Fact: Israel has violated 65 UN resolutions, and the world stands idly by. Iraq violated two and was invaded.
    Let's be frank, most of UN resolutions against Israel are an extensive list of muslim butthurt against Israeli existence. Here is an extensive list of Muslim countries who are UN members who would vote against anything Israel does, aside from maybe agreeing to to dismantle their country and march into the sea. And this is not counting other power players such as Russia and China, who use Arabs as pawns to offset American influence in the region.

    How do Americans or Europeans benefit from this?
    Most European countries don't give two shits about Israeli interests. As for America's take on all of this - I believe the term is an "unsinkable aircraft carrier" in the Middle East.
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

  3. #43
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    i'm saying i agree with the logic of rail tracer. If you want to understand who's the victim and who's the oppressor, then look at the numbers: 104 palestinians killed, 866 wounded, 1643 rockets fired in gaza, 822 houses destroyed, so far. then who's the oppressor, palestine or israel?

    Another example: 911 If you want to understand who's behind it (cause), look at who profited the most from those events, in the long run. Before 911, I thought it was odd that Bush had been elected and hadn't yet defined his foreign policy. Just after 911, all the focus went on fighting against terrorism, on the threat that was the middle east, etc. For 8 years, US foreign policy focused on security, military spending and creating wars in the middle east. Who got richer after 9/11, who benefited from it? Merely the US. The Bush administration and its allies, american contractors and bankers.
    So, if you want to understand who was behind 9/11, then look at the consequences, at who took benefit from it.

    It's also like when you lose something. When I was a child my father taught me to remember and retrace all the movements I had taken, do step by step in reserve order until I'd find it. So this is the same: look at the consequence and retrace the events back to their source.
    I have no problem admitting the Israelis have have much to answer for and that they hold the trump cards - but what you're saying is totally simplistic.

    For one thing Hamas intentionally fire rockets from suburban areas, knowing that when the Israelis strike back, and civilians die, they can play the victim card. This is nothing new. During the second intifada, Hamas set up bomb making factories next to primary schools, because even if they get hit, it will be a PR coup - lots of dead school children is a victory for Hamas. And you know what that means: sympathy from the rest of the world and a whole raft of pissed off Palestinians who decide to sign up with Hamas. It's win-win for them.

    Just tread carefully when you go down this path. There's a reason why terrorists kill people - it's to win sympathy from people like you. This is how terrorism works. Some disgruntled group cast themselves as the underdog, and some government as the big bad oppressors, and then before you know it, rational people are defending the right for that group to target and kill innocent civilians.

    There are no straight-forward victims in this conflict other than the civilians dying and losing loved ones. I know it's tempting to point the finger and look for easy answers, but there is so much blood on the hands of both sides that neither can be held blameless. Beside the fact that your rationale could be used to prove the case for either side. By that simplistic reasoning you could say the Palestinians must have brought the conflict on to themselves, otherwise this wouldn't be happening to them - ie they must be the cause of the problem. It's ridiculous.
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  4. #44
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    And to all you assholes who always ask "Why should we help Israel in their wars?", I ask you how is our getting involved in keeping peace between them and Hamas any better? It's still meddling, meddling that i don't feel we should bother with either way. But if you're the kind of anti-Israel brainless drone the media wants you to be, I guess the latter options seems better to you.. in spite of any hypocrisy.

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  6. #46
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    For one thing Hamas intentionally fire rockets from suburban areas, knowing that when the Israelis strike back, and civilians die, they can play the victim card. This is nothing new. During the second intifada, Hamas set up bomb making factories next to primary schools, because even if they get hit, it will be a PR coup - lots of dead school children is a victory for Hamas. And you know what that means: sympathy from the rest of the world and a whole raft of pissed off Palestinians who decide to sign up with Hamas. It's win-win for them.
    When the parents of those dead schoolchildren - or even ones still alive - start telling Hamas to get their munitions away from the school, we will have turned an important corner. We will never get rid of armed conflict, but we should at least aim to confine it to trained, willing combatants on both sides. Palestine will reap no benefits from its higher birthrate if they knowingly leave children in harm's way (much less encourage them into suicide attacks).

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Just tread carefully when you go down this path. There's a reason why terrorists kill people - it's to win sympathy from people like you. This is how terrorism works. Some disgruntled group cast themselves as the underdog, and some government as the big bad oppressors, and then before you know it, rational people are defending the right for that group to target and kill innocent civilians.
    The same logic would justify the Sept 11 attacks in the US, or the July 2005 bombings in London, or the 2004 Madrid train bombing.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  7. #47
    Klingon Warrior Princess Patches's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    But if you're the kind of anti-Israel brainless drone the media wants you to be, I guess the latter options seems better to you.. in spite of any hypocrisy.
    I don't disagree with you regarding the 'Don't meddle in the affairs of other countries' policy, as I tend to lean pretty Libertarian on these kinds of issues. But I hate this constant blathering about the impact of the media. The right complains about the impact of the liberal media, the left complains about the impact of Fox news, Israel supporters complain that Palestinian-slanted news sources are lies, Palestinians complain that Israeli news is lies. Everyone accuses everyone else of being tools of their respective 'competitor' news sources.

    Most of us posting here are in situations where the flow of information is practically unlimited. Between the plethora of news channels and the endless stream of information available on the internet... I think it's narrow minded to assume that every person you disagree with is simply ill-informed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    The point is, even if both governments want peace and a two state solution (which I would say they do - behind closed doors anyway), there are obstacles that make it extremely difficult to achieve it.
    Do you think the Palestinian government truly wants a two state solution? Did they not decline/walk away from several two-state proposals? I don't doubt that the Palestinian people want that, but not the government.

    Even if they did, I don't see a two-state system being worked out mostly because of Jerusalem. Both states want Jerusalem. Israel agreed to a solution which specified Jerusalem as international - belonging to neither. I was under the impression that Palestine refused because they want Jerusalem. But Israel will never agree with any solution that put Jerusalem in the hands of Palestine. Hence the stalemate.
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    them they've all got unimaginable, magnificent, wonderful, stupid, amazing worlds. Not just one world. Hundreds of them. Thousands maybe.” -Neil Gaiman

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  8. #48
    Senor Membrae Eugene Watson VIII's Avatar
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    If we could just....swap Israel and China.

    We could stand for many generations to come instead of moving to another planet.

  9. #49
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    I'm about to start reading The Little Drummer Girl by John Le Carre. It's a fictional book about Israel/Palestine from the early 1980s. It has been accused of being both pro-Israeli and pro-Palestinian. This gives me hope that it's actually going to be more balanced and less fictional than most of the news reporting and commentary from either side currently.
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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Oh please. Israel is a nuclear power with one of the best trained militaries in the world. The equivalent of what you describe would be A LOT more than surgical strikes on HAMAS infrastructure.
    Just to clarify, are you saying we should be grateful Israel hasn't nuked Gaza, just because they can? In that case I guess Putin and the Chinese Communist Party deserve a Nobel Prizes, because there are still some buildings standing in Chechnya and Tibet.

    Seeing as Hamas is the elected government of the Gaza Strip, then "surgical strikes on Hamas "infrastructure" can mean a school, hospital, or car driving through the street.

    The Israelis advise Palestinians to not be "near" any Hamas buildings or members. This is a bit like telling Americans that they won't be bombed as long as they stay away from any building or person associated with the Republicans.

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