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  1. #31
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Yeah, I'm not even talking about the rights and wrongs of the situation here. I'm asking just about logistics for now.

    I know that a lot of Israelis would like the Palestinians to magically vanish into thin air and a lot of Palestinians (and the Arab nations, at least their governments/representatives) would like the Israelis to magically vanish into thin air. However, I don't think either is very likely.


    EDIT: By the way, I liked this article, though it may be thin on actual practicalities. It does seem as though the commentary and reporting on both sides is very heavily about who's more right and who's more wrong. Not so helpful.

    (Of course, I would like this piece, because it's based on the words of a poet.)

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...rotected-right
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  2. #32
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Palestine had the chance for statehood 10-12 years ago, during one of the peace negotiation sessions, and refused it because not all of their land demands would be met. Just think: now they could be an independent nation, with a representative at the UN, embassies around the world, arguing for that land with Israel on an equal footing. Now they are reverting to their violent roots. When you play all-or-nothing, it is far too easy to end up with nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Of course the Palestinians have suffered so much and they deserve to have a country of their own. But the situation as it stands (even before the present escalation), makes it impossible for this to happen. There are people (and issues) on both sides stopping this and the ordinary Palestinian is stuck in the middle. Have you asked yourself, does the average Gaza resident want Hamas to pick this fight, knowing the inevitable Palestinian casualties that will result? I bet not, but Hamas does it anyway, without consideration of their own people's lives.
    This is a major problem for the Palestinians, namely that they cannot even get their own house in order. Disagreement between Fatah and Hamas weakens both the Palestinian cause and their ability to reach their goals. Some Palestinians have come to realize that terrorism and violence is not the way to succeed, but their voices are often drowned out by those who prefer these options. Until they can speak with a clear and unified voice, they will make little progress. As long as their program is to shoot rockets at Israel, they undercut their case and throw away the potential for goodwill from many parts of the world.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Yeah, I'm not even talking about the rights and wrongs of the situation here. I'm asking just about logistics for now.
    My point is, why worry about the logistics of something impossible? Israel is as much under threat from the Palestinians as of the US being ivaded by Cuba. There are things that could be done here and now, to prevent this kind of bombing campaign by Israel, and improve western relations with the Middle East to all of our benefit, but we don't do them. Because of a small but powerful pro-Israel lobby.

    When Obama won people thought he would stand up to them, and to an extent he has, but in this case it seems they have decided to test him upon reelection, and he isn't seeming to respond.

  4. #34
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Che Parla View Post
    The best illustration I've seen on this, was sadly not in English, but I will translate:



    Caption reads: Nobody can deny Israel the right to defend itself in the face of such aggression.
    Yet Hamas is still lobbing their shitty rockets at Israel, year after year. Even after Israel pulled their troops out of Gaza and dismantled the settlements there.

    A lot of people seem to be concentrating on Israel's supposed heavy handed responses, yet nobody seems to be discussing Palestinian desire to martyr themselves and their children.
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

  5. #35
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    since a few here have vouched a concern:
    1. I am currently residing in the north, outside of Gaza's rocket range.
    2. The Hezbollah has shown no sign of joining to attack from the north.
    3. Word from friends down south: "Its OK, the bomb shelters have WiFi".

    Now to business:
    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    This is a conflict Israel cannot win. Emigration is increasing (over a million Israelis live abroad now). They're going to lose the reproduction battle. Israel will be eaten from the inside out. It's only a matter of time.
    I have thought about the population question for quite awhile - southern cross describes it very accurately.

    A potential "solution" to the internal reality (with it's own problems) that i can see happening, is a combination of e-democracy and immigration reforms, that would allow eligible immigrants to gain a full Israeli citizenship through non-local-means, in a trip that could possibly be no more consuming then the Birthsight trip many Jewish-Americans take today, thus gaining a citizenship, and a right to vote in the Israeli elections through online means, regardless of residence.
    The requirement for this to work are that contributions from Jewish communities will be able to account for reduced national income form taxation, and that more members of the diaspora join the army - while Israel may not have enough of a population to withdraw the draft and rely on a volunteer army, the diaspora as a whole might.

    If this happens, Israel can take a very different role, an anchor rather then a home, a political and military foothold for the wider Jewish diaspora. This would be good news for the palestinians in the short term - such a government is quite likely to care more about how it looks to the world then about matters of defense. In the long term, it means Israel is to become an ethnic government, with it's regional basis only symbolic. The newly emergent Palestinian diaspora throughout Europe might take the same route, and many others in the future.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Yet Hamas is still lobbing their shitty rockets at Israel, year after year. Even after Israel pulled their troops out of Gaza and dismantled the settlements there.
    You think Israel was sitting back passively during the past 3 years and that no Palestinians were killed, and no blockade enforced?

    A lot of people seem to be concentrating on Israel's supposed heavy handed responses, yet nobody seems to be discussing Palestinian desire to martyr themselves and their children.
    Hamas is pretty much all that all western leaders focus on.

    I can understand why Israeli politicians would repeat these lies, when this is the public they play to:



    or this:

    http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdCo...aspx?id=292466

    But I am saddened that Western politicians are still so cautious to stand up to them and the powerful Zionist lobby. The short term difficulties would be outweighed by the long-term benefits for their countries. Sadly, such statesmanship appears to be lacking.

  7. #37
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    @Rail Tracer said "More Palestinians have been killed in a yearly basis, if that is what you are asking."
    @Riva replied "Just because you got more bruises after a fight that does not automatically make you a victim."

    i'm saying i agree with the logic of rail tracer. If you want to understand who's the victim and who's the oppressor, then look at the numbers: 104 palestinians killed, 866 wounded, 1643 rockets fired in gaza, 822 houses destroyed, so far. then who's the oppressor, palestine or israel?

    Another example: 911 If you want to understand who's behind it (cause), look at who profited the most from those events, in the long run. Before 911, I thought it was odd that Bush had been elected and hadn't yet defined his foreign policy. Just after 911, all the focus went on fighting against terrorism, on the threat that was the middle east, etc. For 8 years, US foreign policy focused on security, military spending and creating wars in the middle east. Who got richer after 9/11, who benefited from it? Merely the US. The Bush administration and its allies, american contractors and bankers.
    So, if you want to understand who was behind 9/11, then look at the consequences, at who took benefit from it.

    It's also like when you lose something. When I was a child my father taught me to remember and retrace all the movements I had taken, do step by step in reserve order until I'd find it. So this is the same: look at the consequence and retrace the events back to their source.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Could you elaborate?

  8. #38
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    lol yeah, as if. The US will never go against Israel, forget that. And what makes me the most enraged in this situation is that the International Community is still not voicing itself. I mean, there's a massacre going on at the moment, it's a humanitarian problem right now, first and foremost and leaving aside any political stances. So I have to conclude that the "rest of the world, US in particular" is just calculistic and is watching out for their own (political, economical, etc) interests.

    The only thing that really frightens me in all this is that the conflict might escalate into WWIII. What do you all think?

    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Che Parla View Post
    The rest of the world, US in particular, could start by holding Israel to account, with sanctions and/or cutting aid.

    LOL. yeah exactly
    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Che Parla View Post
    My point is, why worry about the logistics of something impossible? Israel is as much under threat from the Palestinians as of the US being ivaded by Cuba.

  9. #39
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Che Parla View Post
    You think Israel was sitting back passively during the past 3 years and that no Palestinians were killed, and no blockade enforced?
    Of course they weren't sitting back passively. Why would they sit passively when their civilians are targeted by random rocket attacks?

    Oh that's right, those rockets were "kind of small", like the caricature you've posted illustrated, so I guess they should have let it slide and lifted the blockade so HAMAS could get bigger ones.
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Of course they weren't sitting back passively. Why would they sit passively when their civilians are targeted by random rocket attacks?
    You seemed to suggest that Hamas rockets were being fired in a context of no Israeli aggression, when you stated:

    Yet Hamas is still lobbing their shitty rockets at Israel, year after year. Even after Israel pulled their troops out of Gaza and dismantled the settlements there.
    As if Palestinians had no other reason to be pissed off since 2008.

    Regardless, let's asusme for a moment that your premise, that Hamas is the "aggressor", is correct (though I disagree):

    If a guy spits in my face in the street, maybe I have the right to punch him in the face and the law would look leniently upon me.

    If once he falls on the floor, I keep kicking him, then call my friends to kick him too, until he is in a coma, then the law would no longer look leniently on me, regardless of his "intentions" towards me.

    Fact: Israel has violated 65 UN resolutions, and the world stands idly by. Iraq violated two and was invaded.

    How do Americans or Europeans benefit from this?

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