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  1. #21
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    whose to blame is lousy discussion with more red herrings then points. the question is what can be done.

    Hamas wasn't elected because the palestinians hate Israel or hate peace, it was elected because it had the contributions on the scale of a government budget, it had money for hospitals and schools and infrastructure and armed police as well as the rockets we see today, when the PLO didn't have money to pay it's own officers wages (thus enabling for the internal corruption which allowed the hamas to gain it's arms in the first place).

    what i would ask those who contribute their money to the situation in one form or another, is to support the PLO. Instead of supporting Gaza for their suffering or Israel for there's, support the PLO for their chances in relinquishing that suffering, so that it can one day reclaim support within gaza has they have done in the west bank, and deliver the same prospect of peace and gradually opening trade routes that the west bank has being enjoying in comparison to Gaza, enable peace to the Israeli people and the Palestinian people, and with time, the gears of economical inter dependency will be the one's to secure it, because in such a tight knit situation, that economical inter dependency is unavoidable.

    And yes, for those wondering...
    I second all that, I actually dont oppose Zionism, of a sort, or anyone from elsewhere in the world feeling they have dual nationality or some sorts of ethno-nationalism, black nationalists or ex-pat irish nationalists, but Israel today is nothing like that. There were internationalist and integrationist Jewish in all countries before the second world war, they were socialists and had a strong identity which was also an alternative to present day Israel.

  2. #22
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    whose to blame is lousy discussion with more red herrings then points. the question is what can be done.

    Hamas wasn't elected because the palestinians hate Israel or hate peace, it was elected because it had the contributions on the scale of a government budget, it had money for hospitals and schools and infrastructure and armed police as well as the rockets we see today, when the PLO didn't have money to pay it's own officers wages (thus enabling for the internal corruption which allowed the hamas to gain it's arms in the first place).

    what i would ask those who contribute their money to the situation in one form or another, is to support the PLO. Instead of supporting Gaza for their suffering or Israel for there's, support the PLO for their chances in relinquishing that suffering, so that it can one day reclaim support within gaza has they have done in the west bank, and deliver the same prospect of peace and gradually opening trade routes that the west bank has being enjoying in comparison to Gaza, enable peace to the Israeli people and the Palestinian people, and with time, the gears of economical inter dependency will be the one's to secure it, because in such a tight knit situation, that economical inter dependency is unavoidable.

    And yes, for those wondering...
    Does the PLO really exist anymore? I mean, in the way it used to. Perhaps you mean Fatah? I thought it's the modern political equivalent.

    You are right. And this sort of problem has been commonplace is the Middle East (and probably elsewhere).

    What you often have is a corrupt, semi-secular, moderate party made up of the well-educated, privileged upper-class, who do shit all to drive progress and to support the poor and struggling - and the people hate them (or at best begrudgingly tolerate them). Then you have a hard-line, fundamentalist, deeply religious organisation, made up of middle class and poor, who are less-well educated, who connect with ordinary people, do a lot of charitable work, and bring about genuine change and development for the country - and the people love them (or at least prefer them to the corrupt government). The problem is that the first kind are often in power through dictatorship and in many cases are propped up by Western powers, because of the stability they bring and because they work hard to combat terrorism; and the problem with the latter kind is that they are often associated with terrorism, bring religious oppression, and they create unstable governments and wider regions. It's a lose-lose choice between them, for both their own people and foreign powers seeking to help.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    This is a conflict Israel cannot win. Emigration is increasing (over a million Israelis live abroad now). They're going to lose the reproduction battle. Israel will be eaten from the inside out. It's only a matter of time.
    Yes the reproduction battle is an issue - both between nations and within Israel. The divide with Israel is a major factor in why peace is difficult to achieve. The Orthodox, Haredim (the ultra-orthodox) and Israelis Arabs are breeding much faster than the secular and moderately religious Jews. Most of the orthodox believe Israel is defined geographically as everything between the Mediterranean and the Jordan river, and will make no concessions on that. They also make up probably all of the settlers stealing land and harassing Palestinian farmers in the West Bank. The Haredim don't really give a shit about the conflict, refuse military service and generally believe Israel is an illegitimate state (they believe only God can gift the state of Israel to the Jews). The Arab Israelis seem to be fairly moderate but aren't going to mix well with a large population of hard-line Orthodox, many of whom would gladly throw them out.

    The growing Orthodox are the real problem. The secular Israelis are staring to really dislike, if not despise them (as well as the Haredim) and it's possible it could come to blows. The Israeli government is also forced to tolerate and appease them, hence the stop-start nature of the settlement expansion in the West Bank. If the Israeli government were to sign a peace accord tomorrow granting the Palestinians the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, there would probably be civil war in Israel.
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  3. #23
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rail Tracer View Post
    More Palestinians have been killed in a yearly basis, if that is what you are asking.
    Just because you got more bruises after a fight that does not automatically make you a victim.
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

  4. #24
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    Im going to give you a basic history lesson: if you want to understand the cause, look at the consequence(s). This principle can be applied to virtually anything, just try.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Just because you got more bruises after a fight that does not automatically make you a victim.

  5. #25
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    Im going to give you a basic history lesson: if you want to understand the cause, look at the consequence(s). This principle can be applied to virtually anything, just try.
    Could you elaborate?
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Just because you got more bruises after a fight that does not automatically make you a victim.
    The best illustration I've seen on this, was sadly not in English, but I will translate:



    Caption reads: Nobody can deny Israel the right to defend itself in the face of such aggression.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    Im going to give you a basic history lesson: if you want to understand the cause, look at the consequence(s). This principle can be applied to virtually anything, just try.
    At the risk of sounding really slow I must ask you to elaborate. Mainly because I don't see how it relates to what you quoted at all and because the consequences don't always co-relate to the cause. It is either an over / under reaction.

    So please elaborate.

  8. #28
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    The problems started with the creation of Israël.

    The problem will be solved with the dismantling of Israël.

    Anyway, I think that in one generation or two from now, Israël will have disappear.

    For Iran, they are diabolized in an irrational way. A nuclear bomb is far less dangerous is Hamadinejad's hand or any other iranian politics, than in Netanyahu or Dick Cheney's hands.
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  9. #29
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    @Speed Gavroche, how do you think (or hope) that "the dismantling of Israel" is going to take place?

    How will that happen logistically? Where will its inhabitants go? How will the rest of the world participate in, or else oppose, this dismantling? Will the Middle East be at peace when Israel is gone?
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    @Speed Gavroche, how do you think (or hope) that "the dismantling of Israel" is going to take place?

    How will that happen logistically? Where will its inhabitants go? How will the rest of the world participate in, or else oppose, this dismantling? Will the Middle East be at peace when Israel is gone?
    Israel is never going to be dismantled it is one of the most heavily armed states in the world and by far the most armed in the Middle East.

    The rest of the world, US in particular, could start by holding Israel to account, with sanctions and/or cutting aid. They have violated 65 UN resolutions with no consequences. Iraq under Saddam Hussein violated 2 (two) and look what happened to them.

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