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  1. #11
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I dont even try to analyse the middle east anymore really, its like some terrible mutually assured destruction pact between two insane factions.

    The palestinians are so, so far gone in terms of trauma and oppression that I doubt they are likely to be ever able to constitute anything approaching a legitimate authority on a world scale, I dont know if Arafat's PLO could have been capable of the sort of change and credibility that the ANC was (people forget they were formerly engaged in armed struggle and condemned as terrorists too) but it had more chance than what remains now.

    The israelis are scary, damn scary, I dont think that many people in the west, especially America, think too hard about the sort of racialised ethno-nationalist consciousness which is at the heart of zionism and israel.

    I do think there's plenty of reasons why they are more legitimate than the palestinians presently, their missile defence screen intercepts rockets mid-flight in the air and their counter strikes are pretty surgical in contrast to the palestinians rocket attacks. The public disdain there is for Israel is largely a result of the most well funded and one of the most sophisticated military forces in the world taking on a force of largely irregular fighters who are civilian in character and composition.

    Although, I really question the extent to which should the Israeli's "palestinian problem" ever end, one way or another and I fear with some kind of horrific mass death and displacement of the palestinians, that they will be able to demilitarise and become a normal society, its not just a question of whether or not the neighbouring states like Iran would ever change sufficiently to accept co-existence either. The Israelis will be on the search for the "next threat" or could even decide to seek vengence for past wrongs. I'd really like to think that there's nothing to worry about but I dont think its the case at all and I started thinking it a long time ago when the peace brokers in the power structures on both the palestine and israel sides where assasinated.
    Unfortunately, this is very much the case. The conflict has gone so far that it has a life of its own and even the Israeli and Palestinian leaders feel powerless to stop it. The point is, even if both governments want peace and a two state solution (which I would say they do - behind closed doors anyway), there are obstacles that make it extremely difficult to achieve it. The levels of fear, anger and distrust alone make it difficult for anyone to go out on a limb. So instead they only fight day to day, battle to battle; addressing each individual situation as it comes; wearily fighting for short-sighted objectives they know are untenable in the long-term. Both sides invest little thought in real solutions and the future because they have all but given up the idea of it.
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  2. #12
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Unfortunately, this is very much the case. The conflict has gone so far that it has a life of its own and even the Israeli and Palestinian leaders feel powerless to stop it. The point is, even if both governments want peace and a two state solution (which I would say they do - behind closed doors anyway), there are obstacles that make it extremely difficult to achieve it. The levels of fear, anger and distrust alone make it difficult for anyone to go out on a limb. So instead they only fight day to day, battle to battle; addressing each individual situation as it comes; wearily fighting for short-sighted objectives they know are untenable in the long-term. Both sides invest little thought in real solutions and the future because they have all but given up the idea of it.
    I highlighted what I thought was the most important point, I think that this is a perfect characterisation of what has happened. The conflict itself, like a lot of conflicts like it, has produced a social character from the repeated trauma which is "chaotic" and short sighted. Even without the on going violence I think it would take generations to work itself out and the violence is only going to sustain it and maintain it.

  3. #13
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I highlighted what I thought was the most important point, I think that this is a perfect characterisation of what has happened. The conflict itself, like a lot of conflicts like it, has produced a social character from the repeated trauma which is "chaotic" and short sighted. Even without the on going violence I think it would take generations to work itself out and the violence is only going to sustain it and maintain it.
    The only way it happens is when both the Israelis and Palestinians are so burnt out by conflict that the only option left is peace. The problem is they haven't lost the taste for war and too many idiots on both sides still think it's actually possible to achieve 'victory' through combat. Most of the politicians don't, whether they admit it or not. Even Ariel Sharon, a (in)famous hawk, said that a two-state solution is inevitable and Israel will have to relinquish the territories.
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  4. #14
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    The only way it happens is when both the Israelis and Palestinians are so burnt out by conflict that the only option left is peace. The problem is they haven't lost the taste for war and too many idiots on both sides still think it's actually possible to achieve 'victory' through combat. Most of the politicians don't, whether they admit it or not. Even Ariel Sharon, a (in)famous hawk, said that a two-state solution is inevitable and Israel will have to relinquish the territories.
    I agree with you, although the shocking thing is that victory is so vague as to be no idea at all as to what it means, besides some sort of dream of annihilation.

  5. #15
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I agree with you, although the shocking thing is that victory is so vague as to be no idea at all as to what it means, besides some sort of dream of annihilation.
    Yes, exactly. Either that or they have some naive dream that the other side will eventually pack up and leave, and then everything will be hunky dory.
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  6. #16
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Yes, exactly. Either that or they have some naive dream that the other side will eventually pack up and leave, and then everything will be hunky dory.
    Basically that "they" will disappear but I think they're unprepared for that really, the loyalists and unionists werent really ready for the disappearence of the IRA in Northern Ireland but its a slightly different conflict and its not been entirely about the IRA for that community either to be honest.

  7. #17
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    whose to blame is lousy discussion with more red herrings then points. the question is what can be done.

    Hamas wasn't elected because the palestinians hate Israel or hate peace, it was elected because it had the contributions on the scale of a government budget, it had money for hospitals and schools and infrastructure and armed police as well as the rockets we see today, when the PLO didn't have money to pay it's own officers wages (thus enabling for the internal corruption which allowed the hamas to gain it's arms in the first place).

    what i would ask those who contribute their money to the situation in one form or another, is to support the PLO. Instead of supporting Gaza for their suffering or Israel for there's, support the PLO for their chances in relinquishing that suffering, so that it can one day reclaim support within gaza has they have done in the west bank, and deliver the same prospect of peace and gradually opening trade routes that the west bank has being enjoying in comparison to Gaza, enable peace to the Israeli people and the Palestinian people, and with time, the gears of economical inter dependency will be the one's to secure it, because in such a tight knit situation, that economical inter dependency is unavoidable.

    And yes, for those wondering...

  8. #18
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    This is a conflict Israel cannot win. Emigration is increasing (over a million Israelis live abroad now). They're going to lose the reproduction battle. Israel will be eaten from the inside out. It's only a matter of time.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  9. #19
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    We need to keep people like these as far away from foreign policy decisions as possible:

    http://www.godlikeproductions.com/fo...age1778593/pg1
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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