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  1. #151
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    Good to see that @SouthernKross is finally seeing the conflict as a matter of resistance to an aggressor rather than terrorism. Did the UN voting make you change your mind?
    Also: how embarassing for those 9 countries that voted against and the40something ones that abstained. Israel, The US, Canada, Australia, the UK, Germany, The Netherlands, Hungary, the Czech Republic....very embarassing.
    Wow.

    Actually, I didn't change my mind at all. Do I really seem that capricious? Like @SilkRoad said, I have been of the same opinion all along. I'm sorry if I gave you the impression that I was anti-Palestinian, as that was not my intention. I have tried to show my ambivalence on the issues and that it is a complex situation with no clear "goodies and badies". I suppose it's possible you believed I was being disingenuous earlier, when I said that I sympathised with the Palestinians and their suffering, but I assure this is not the case. I realise I have spent more time defending the Israelis in this thread but this is merely an attempt to play devil's advocate and create a balanced discussion. I have had similar debates in the past IRL and have been accused of being anti-Israel, pro-terrorism, and even anti-Semetic once - all of which are totally incorrect and unfair.

    I realise that sometimes Fi-users register more passion in their arguments when they're disagreeing, and that people often mistake this for negativity or extreme partiality. But please understand that this is done to create a sense of clarity and/or complexity around an issue, and not because I'm being obnoxious or do not appreciate other perspectives. Perhaps if you went back and read through what I have written, you would think better of me - or not.

    I'm glad the UN vote went through. I'm also glad NZ didn't oppose or abstain (I was wrongly informed by someone we did and was initially angry and embarrassed). I'm pissed off that Netanyahu responded by announcing large scale development in the West Bank. It's a giant F-You to the UN and the peace process.

    Israel moves to build 3,000 new settlement homes
    By ARON HELLER and KARIN LAUB | Associated Press – 2 hrs 51 mins ago

    JERUSALEM (AP) — Israel responded swiftly Friday to U.N. recognition of a Palestinian state, revealing it will build 3,000 more homes for Jews on Israeli-occupied lands that the world body overwhelmingly said belong to the Palestinians.

    The plans also include future construction in a strategic area of the West Bank where critics have long warned that Jewish settlements would kill hopes for a viable Palestinian state.

    Israel's moves served as a harsh reminder to Palestinians — euphoric over the U.N. upgrade — that while they now have a state on paper, most of it remains very much under Israeli control.
    "This is a doomsday scenario," Daniel Seidemann of Ir Amim, a group that promotes coexistence in Jerusalem, said of the building plans.

    Israel's decision was bound to embarrass the United States, which was among just nine countries in the 193-member General Assembly to vote against accepting Palestine as a nonmember observer state.

    Accelerated settlement construction could also set a more confrontational tone as Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas weighs his next moves.
    Full article

    BTW this is actually a vaguely balanced article. While, it's critical of Israel's actions, it shows that not all Israelis support the move - including Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni.
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  2. #152
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    Israel is vastly more powerful than the Palestinians. If they use that power to impose their will, then the other side have little choice but to resort to savage tactics to get their attention. But if they do, then then their opponents are also entitled to defend their citizens using as much force as necessary. These are the natural consequences of resolution through violence.

    Both sides need to stop obsessing over past wrongs. Compromise is the only way to secure a better future.

  3. #153
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    NO PROBLEM! I should never have said that, it was tongue in cheek. I don't like talking on the web at all, more than half the meaning gets lost without 'non-verbal' communication blah.
    Take care.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Wow.
    Actually, I didn't change my mind at all. Do I really seem that capricious?

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Wow.

    Actually, I didn't change my mind at all. Do I really seem that capricious? Like @SilkRoad said, I have been of the same opinion all along. I'm sorry if I gave you the impression that I was anti-Palestinian, as that was not my intention. I have tried to show my ambivalence on the issues and that it is a complex situation with no clear "goodies and badies". I suppose it's possible you believed I was being disingenuous earlier, when I said that I sympathised with the Palestinians and their suffering, but I assure this is not the case. I realise I have spent more time defending the Israelis in this thread but this is merely an attempt to play devil's advocate and create a balanced discussion. I have had similar debates in the past IRL and have been accused of being anti-Israel, pro-terrorism, and even anti-Semetic once - all of which are totally incorrect and unfair.

    I realise that sometimes Fi-users register more passion in their arguments when they're disagreeing, and that people often mistake this for negativity or extreme partiality. But please understand that this is done to create a sense of clarity and/or complexity around an issue, and not because I'm being obnoxious or do not appreciate other perspectives. Perhaps if you went back and read through what I have written, you would think better of me - or not.

    I'm glad the UN vote went through. I'm also glad NZ didn't oppose or abstain (I was wrongly informed by someone we did and was initially angry and embarrassed). I'm pissed off that Netanyahu responded by announcing large scale development in the West Bank. It's a giant F-You to the UN and the peace process.



    Full article

    BTW this is actually a vaguely balanced article. While, it's critical of Israel's actions, it shows that not all Israelis support the move - including Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni.
    They also have confiscated a large sum of tax funds form the PA:

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomac...emium-1.481888

    To be honest they just have the mentality of a spoilt chid.

    If Livni opposes the settlements it is surely not on principle, but just because even she thinks they might be pushing their luck with Obama.

  5. #155
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Che Parla View Post
    They also have confiscated a large sum of tax funds form the PA:

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomac...emium-1.481888

    To be honest they just have the mentality of a spoilt chid.
    Yeah, the confiscation of funds is something I've been long opposed to. The Israeli Government have way too much control of their PA's finances.

    If Livni opposes the settlements it is surely not on principle, but just because even she thinks they might be pushing their luck with Obama.
    Who cares why she opposes it? At this point I don't care much about the reasons why something is done as long as it has a positive outcome. If the Israeli government pushed through a peace deal because they wanted to reduce expensive military spending, instead of because it's the right thing to do, I would consider it just as much of a victory. Livni supports a two-state solution, and even though it's based on strategic reasoning (ie. based on the idea that it would be better for Israel in the long term), that's good enough for me.

    It's possible that Livni is going to make another push to become PM and that's why she's trying to undermine Netanyahu - and she would be a better alternative than him too. I remember (cautiously) thinking well of her when I was in Israel and reading about her regularly in the paper. I can't say I like the fact her parents were prominent members of a terrorist organisation, but I suppose I shouldn't hold that against her. She's still a slightly right-leaning centrist, but she's a moderate. She seems more adaptable and willing to compromise than Netanyahu (and others) and appears to have transformed into something of a dove over the years.
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    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  6. #156
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I'm pissed off that Netanyahu responded by announcing large scale development in the West Bank. It's a giant F-You to the UN and the peace process.
    Yeah, it's sad. I can't quite tell if it's a sort of defensive/protective move, or more of a giant F-You/vindictiveness, as you say. Seems the leaders on both side are like children, being petty and vindictive, but with people's lives at stake.
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  7. #157
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Yeah, it's sad. I can't quite tell if it's a sort of defensive/protective move, or more of a giant F-You/vindictiveness, as you say.
    In 1986, when I was in the 6th grade, my social studies teacher, Mr. Weiland, showed us a video from TV (20/20 maybe) that described what the Israeli strategy was regarding settlement (aka "occupation") of the West Bank, Gaza Strip, etc.

    The Israeli official interviewed stated that Israel was building "Facts on the land." - so that when people looked at, thought of, and walked through those regions, that it was apparent that the terrirtory was Israeli terrirtory.

    Notice the word "territory" was used. One does not have to have legitimate ownership or even rights to use in order to lay claim to territory.
    Squatters can claim territory.
    It's shameful for a government that is as well developed, funded, and supported by the international community as the Israeli Government is - that they should have to resort not only to squatting, but to outright occupation by force.

    IMHO, one of the biggest problems the U.S. govt has created for itself is unilateral support of the Israeli government, and giving nothing more than a pittance of aid/support to the Palestinian people.
    Both people lived as nomads historically.
    But, when one of the tow people was given a "state" of their own (aka "Israel") and the other people were not (aka "The Palestinians") a whole lot of bad feelings were born, especially because boht people lived in the same terrirtories TOGETHER for many generations.

    Few people realize that if you overlay the traditional/historical TRIBAL borders/territories of the Middle East, and then superimpose the POLITICAL boundaries of modern Middle Eastern countries (which were in large part created by the British Government many years ago) - that there is an odd pattern of "overlap." People who were historically at odds with one and other were "conveniently" grouped into the same new political states. This caused alot of tension. Tension leads to fighting. The #2 weapons/arms dealer in the world is the British govt, second only to you guessed it - the U.S. govt.

    So, what was once a convenient experiment to create a weapons market has turned into generations of hatred, violence, oppression, terrorism, warfare, and evil behavior in general.

    Without formation of a Palestinian State, and international support of it, there will be no peace for Israel, no peace in the Middle East, and a higher probability of the profligation of fundamentalist terrorism throughout the world for a very long time.

    The Israeli govt has BRUTALIZED Palestinians and covered it up since it gained the authority to police its new state.
    Power breeds corruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Seems the leaders on both side are like children, being petty and vindictive, but with people's lives at stake.
    Very well stated.
    Aren't these characteristics basic qualifications/requirements for modern politicians?
    These days the world's governments are run by "elected officials."
    That is simply a word for "power elite person who will steal from their constituents while they are in office."
    More than ever the world's governments need to be run by STATESMEN and STATESWOMEN - people of integrity who put the good of their people before the good of their political popularity.



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  8. #158
    Member Isis's Avatar
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    Judaism is a religion, not an ethnicity. Even if it could be tied to a common ethnicity ... well---- it can't. Laying claim to ancient land for a religious group makes no sense. Then why don't any and all of us look back at our roots and lay claims to land everywhere. U.S.A. give the entire country BACK to the native indians. Europe- give back your land to whatever indigenous people you squashed before you settled there. It is a non-sensical and racist and I truly can't even believe in this day and age the world collectively accepts this hogwash. And btw- once they got a country of their own- they should have behaved like civilized human beings but no. They have to hide behind the guise of a faith they don't even practice and steal and murder. We live in Barbarian times.
    I am amazed at the resilience of the Palestinian people, what they endure and how they never give up even though they live in conditions worse than animals at the zoo.

    Edit- So my point is, the creation of Israel does not make sense to me. HOWEVER, if it's government had truly acted democratic and a good neighbor- the world would love and accept. Not only did this not happen, it is a train wreck of evil. 60 year experiment = epic fail. My opinion- TRUE Jews with faith in God who detest this government, take a stand NOW. Create a self-sufficient (meaning no U.S. funding) state that disarms their nuclear program and gives the media and congress back to American citizens. Then live there till doomsday for all anyone cares. But the way it is now? FAIL. It's over. It cannot sustain itself because any EVIL empire in history (read history for yourself!) always dooms itself.
    Last edited by Isis; 12-09-2012 at 05:18 PM. Reason: additional thoughts

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