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  1. #111
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isis View Post
    Please provide specifics on these allegations. And what are we talking about timeline wise?

    Are you trying to justify the last 60 years with rhetoric about arabs ethnic cleansing? This is the a perfect example of zionistic twisting of words that have become the pinnacle of it's existence. To live every day knowing you are a magician and bullshitting your way through life- does it make you feel good about yourself? That you live at the expense of others? That you live on U.S. tax dollars?? And by infiltrating and lobbying a foreign government? Meaning you can't stand on your own? Shame.
    Approximately 850,000 Jews were driven away from Arab lands between 1948-1972.....it kind of strains credibility to claim that most of these Jews left due to some Zionist agenda when a.) they didn't try to move to Israel before the actions (and inactions) of Arab governments, and b.) those that did not already have their properties confiscated had to leave it all behind or, at best, sell it for obscenely low amounts before arriving in Israel with nothing:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_...slim_countries

    http://www.meforum.org/263/why-jews-...arab-countries

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/..._refugees.html

    As for the rest, I'm neither Jewish nor Israeli, and the only person in this thread with an obsession with some vague definition of 'zionism' is yourself.

  2. #112
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Approximately 850,000 Jews were driven away from Arab lands between 1948-1972.....it kind of strains credibility to claim that most of these Jews left due to some Zionist agenda when a.) they didn't try to move to Israel before the actions (and inactions) of Arab governments, and b.) those that did not already have their properties confiscated had to leave it all behind or, at best, sell it for obscenely low amounts before arriving in Israel with nothing:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_...slim_countries

    http://www.meforum.org/263/why-jews-...arab-countries

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/..._refugees.html

    As for the rest, I'm neither Jewish nor Israeli, and the only person in this thread with an obsession with some vague definition of 'zionism' is yourself.
    That's interesting because I've seen good reporting of the Jewish population in Israel doing precisely the same thing to Arab neighbours, its interesting to know there was a precident for that and its a sort of tit for tat thing.

  3. #113
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    That's interesting because I've seen good reporting of the Jewish population in Israel doing precisely the same thing to Arab neighbours
    Yeah, I would never claim that Israel has been a paragon of virtue throughout this conflict. For a good pro-Palestinian site (with useful maps) I'd reccomend the Foundation for Middle East Peace: http://fmep.org/

    Its a good site for Americans seeking a balanced perspective on the conflict (for most other nationalities, a balanced perspective would require a good pro-Israeli site).

  4. #114
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Yeah, I would never claim that Israel has been a paragon of virtue throughout this conflict. For a good pro-Palestinian site (with useful maps) I'd reccomend the Foundation for Middle East Peace: http://fmep.org/

    Its a good site for Americans seeking a balanced perspective on the conflict (for most other nationalities, a balanced perspective would require a good pro-Israeli site).
    I would have to say you're wrong about that, the reporting on the BBC at least is fiercely pro-Israel.

  5. #115
    Member Isis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Approximately 850,000 Jews were driven away from Arab lands between 1948-1972.....it kind of strains credibility to claim that most of these Jews left due to some Zionist agenda when a.) they didn't try to move to Israel before the actions (and inactions) of Arab governments, and b.) those that did not already have their properties confiscated had to leave it all behind or, at best, sell it for obscenely low amounts before arriving in Israel with nothing:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_...slim_countries

    http://www.meforum.org/263/why-jews-...arab-countries

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/..._refugees.html

    As for the rest, I'm neither Jewish nor Israeli, and the only person in this thread with an obsession with some vague definition of 'zionism' is yourself.
    So Jews flocked to Israel after the creation of Israel in 1948. Wow. Shocking.

    Okay- vague explanation of zionism. Is that your way of saying zionism is not a real thing? It is not the current standing government of Israel? Is not ethnocentric and genocidal?

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

  6. #116
    Member Isis's Avatar
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    [VIDEO REMOVED]
    Last edited by CuriousFeeling; 11-25-2012 at 10:03 PM. Reason: Video removed for offensive content.

  7. #117
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    ^ You are repulsive.

    Take your bigotry elsewhere because it is not welcome here.
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  8. #118
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isis View Post
    So Jews flocked to Israel after the creation of Israel in 1948. Wow. Shocking.

    Okay- vague explanation of zionism. Is that your way of saying zionism is not a real thing? It is not the current standing government of Israel? Is not ethnocentric and genocidal?
    If by 'flock' you mean 'desparately seeking sanctuary as refugees', then yes. After their experiences, its no surprise that they later came to believe that the only place Jews could live free from persecution (especially in the Middle East) was in a Jewish nation-state.

    Its my way of saying that your conception of 'zionism' as a genocidal Nazi ideology seems absurdly hyperbolic, at best (to put it as nicely as possible).....and that's coming from someone who considers Zionism, as originally conceived, to be bullshit. People like you have basically succeeded in making the mainstream interpretations of modern zionism a cold reality, especially within Arab and Muslim countries.

    Edit: and if your vague anti-zionist diatribes are intendeed to promote the belief that 'zionists' seek (or employ) some form of global domination, then screw being as nice as possible....that would make you a brainwashed bigot.

  9. #119
    Senior Member tkae.'s Avatar
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    I think the more and more I've researched these conflicts, the more and more I've realized how bad both sides are waging a war of propaganda that Israel has been losing for the past decade. Most of the outrage against Israel is based on Hamas and pro-Hamas sources, spinning a tragedy into a political incident. Israel has lost the PR war and the international reaction has been outright anti-Semitic. The international backlash has caused the average Israeli citizen frustration at the situation, which causes them to be less sympathetic towards Palestinians, which the international community points to as evidence for the Hamas propaganda. The power of words, right?

    And yes, I'm saying that 9 out of 10 Palestinian citizens who die are extremely tragic collateral damage. The Israeli military has no desire whatsoever to "cleanse" Gaza of Arabs, and for that matter it really doesn't even have a grudge against them. Hamas is using Palestine as a giant human shield against Israel, and the more frustrated Israel gets by the international community or by Hamas, the less careful they are about an already high likelihood of collateral damage.

    Now that the Israeli government (a very hawkish government at the moment) is realizing the importance of PR in these conflicts, it's turned into a kind of commercialization of human life.

    I'm still highly critical of the Israeli government these days, but what I've learned is that Hamas is equally -- slightly more, in fact -- to blame for all this. It's the average citizen of Gaza and the average citizen of Israel who are dying in this war because not only are both sides being terrorized, children getting post-traumatic stress disorder and people being slaughtered, but Hamas and the Israeli government are putting blood on the hands and hate in the hearts of people who want peace.

    That's the biggest thing I've learned. Media outlets turn this into a major fucking deal where everybody on both sides are fighting or want bloodshed, which is as much bullshit as saying that every South Korean hates North Korea. They're polarizing Israelis and Palestinians without any reason at all. But both sides have very vocal camps that are arguing for peace. They're the real victims, because it's an extremely small minority of both sides who want a war, and that minority only has any support because they've convinced people there isn't an alternative. And when you're the ones with the guns and bombs, you can set the pace. They're ratcheting everything up enough that people who argue for peace can't convince anybody that it's possible, though they're finally gaining a lot of ground (which, at least I personally think, is why a hawkish government is so ready to engage in a border clash near the end of elections).
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  10. #120
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I would have to say you're wrong about that, the reporting on the BBC at least is fiercely pro-Israel.
    I've seen the BBC accused of being both pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian, so I don't think it's quite that clear-cut. At any rate, if the Beeb is pro-Israel I don't think it's nearly as heavily pro-Israel as most of the US media would be, for instance.

    The Beeb certainly has human interest stories about the Palestinians and so on. In the recent crisis it seemed to me that they were trying to do human interest on both the Israelis and the Palestinians. But then, I wasn't really watching them, just looking at some online coverage.

    I don't think it's that common to find mainstream media in Europe heavily pro-Israel. Or even very pro-Israel at all. It would be the more right-wing outlets, I guess, like the Daily Telegraph. They just ran a (very biased) article going on about the Beeb's pro-Palestinian bias...


    EDIT: This Wikipedia article is very interesting about criticism of the BBC in its coverage of Israel/Palestine. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critici...inian_conflict

    I must say, I would probably have said that if anything the Beeb was pro-Palestinian, but not that heavily - not compared to many other news sources. The Guardian is rabidly pro-Palestinian/anti-Israel.
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