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  1. #91
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Ok, you're a racist. Just wanted to be clear about that. Thanks for clarifying it.
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  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Oh ok. THat's a very objective statement you're making there.
    Facts of the World:

    #1- Never get involved with a land war in Asia.

    #2- Never go up against a Sicilian when death is on the line.

    #3- Don't try to have an objective discussion with certain members of the human gene pool, ie, they-who-shall-not-be-named.

    Conclusion: Profit.

  3. #93
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Ok, you're a racist. Just wanted to be clear about that. Thanks for clarifying it.
    Calling someone racist when you have no argument? What a fair and original procedure.

    I've not say anything which means or implies that I'am racist. Instead of calling people racist when they disagree with you, you should better to learn.
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  4. #94
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    Calling someone racist when you have no argument? What a fair and original procedure.

    I've not say anything which means or implies that I'am racist. Instead of calling people racist when they disagree with you, you should better to learn.
    All you do is dismiss other people's arguments by calling them Zionists. You've done that before in threads about Israel. People such as myself and Southern Kross have been doing our best to present a balanced viewpoint and you don't acknowledge that at all. It's like if you say one good thing about Israel or Israelis you're a Zionist who wants the entire Arab world wiped out to make way for the Jews.

    How am I supposed to interpret it except as racism when you imply that the Jews bring bad things that have happened to them on themselves and that the race who is the object of racism (whether Jews, or another race) has brought it on themselves? (Just because some Africans sold other Africans into slavery does not mean that "black Africans brought the slave trade on themselves.") Do you also think that abused women bring abuse on themselves? It's a very dangerous argument.


    EDIT: My "argument" is not that the Israelis are right or the Palestinians are right. Part of the problem is that people won't give up their right to "rightness" and just sit down and talk. If I have an argument here it's that media tends to be highly highly biased in one direction or another over this issue and I think it's right and proper to acknowledge that and to acknowledge where your own biases (and we all have them!) may come from.

    Calling people Zionists when they don't agree that Hamas is 100% wonderful and that Israelis/Jews are 100% horrible is not a good argument.

    Honestly, if you don't want to be called racist don't say things like "the best way to avoid anti-semitism is not to provoke it." I'd still like to know how the Jews of France recently "provoked" this #unbonjuif scandal. Because hey, they must have provoked it, right?
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  5. #95
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Interesting comparison.

    I also think it's very interesting that I have never or seldom heard people from other countries "take sides" regarding the Balkan conflicts/dissolution of Yugoslavia, not to anything like the same emotional and inflammatory extent that people comment on Israel/Palestine. The Serbs seem to be demonised more but I haven't seen anything like the level of bias that is constantly the norm with Israel/Palestine, in either direction.
    That's because people in the Balkan conflicts didn't hijack planes and set bombs in foreign countries to draw attention to themselves. I'd hate to say it, but that's what it comes down to - terrorism works. There are plenty of oppressed people out there that nobody cares about, and in most cases, people don't even know about them - that's because they didn't bring violence to the West.

    And hey, in some ways you can certainly understand the need to draw attention to the cause. Westerners are notoriously apathetic in general to the suffering of oppressed people; it takes a lot to get their attention. But I don't like the methods at all.

    Anyway, that's all in the past now. Regardless of why we are paying attention, we should - and we should be concerned about bringing about a solution

    By the way, with the small amount of experience I have, I agree about hospitality and helpfulness of both Israelis and Arabs. I have met few Israelis, but I spent a day with a couple of Israeli guys in Wales years ago, who were extremely nice and courteous, and insisted on cooking and sharing dinner with me at the end of the day in the hostel - when we also had a very interesting and balanced convo about the Israeli-Palestinian issue (the second intifada was under way then.) And, when I travelled in Morocco and Egypt I met with some fantastic hospitality from Arabs - both locals, and some Yemeni friends who we were hanging out with in Cairo. (Of course, we also met with people who ripped us off. But I think that's going to happen in a lot of countries if you're a Westerner, and hence appear to be loaded.)


    Yes, it's a shame the negative stereotypes persist.
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  6. #96
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    Yes. Jews are treated far better in Iran or in Dubaï than arabs are treated in Israël where they have to endure a lot of racist law against them, due to the prevalence of the zionist ideology.
    Um, I'm pretty sure there isn't a Jew left in Iran. They've all high-tailed it to Israel or elsewhere, and the same goes for all Mizrahi (Arab/Persian) Jews. And they didn't leave for a change of scenery, they were driven out. UAE and some other Arab states like Jordan are are slightly more enlightened today but I can tell you that my Jewish friends certainly did not advertise their ethnic/religious status when travelling in such countries. True, Israeli Arabs are not exactly treated well by Western standards but I don't believe it's significantly worse than how Black people are treated in America, Asians are in the UK, or North Africans are in France. This is certainly reprehensible and must be changed, but don't make it out to be worse than it is to aid your argument.

    That's the usual confusion. Many people in Middle-East want wip the state of Israël off the map. Not the people who live in that state.

    Elsewhere, if you believe that Israël have no desire to attack his neighbor to expand his land, you are stupid.
    Have you actually read about what is in the Hamas Covenant (ie. their charter/manifesto) or do you just prefer to make these claims up? According to their Covenant, Hamas are dedicated to making Israel and Palestine into a single Islamic state, destroying Israel, and killing as many Jews as they can along with it.

    Here's a link to the main details of Hamas Covenant

    Some choice quotes:

    "[Hamas] strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine."
    "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."
    "The land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf [Holy Possession] consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgment Day. No one can renounce it or any part, or abandon it or any part of it."
    "[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility."
    They also quote this dubious Hadith:
    "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. "
    Whether or not Hamas still truly believe these things any more is up for debate, but they believed in them enough at the time to write them down in no uncertain terms - and they haven't exactly chosen to make any changes to it so far.

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    The majority believes that it must be ethnically purified since they accepted Sharon and Netanyahu for leader.
    They chose Sharon and Netanyahu because they are/were hawks that to them appeared to have what it took to defend Israel. When people are afraid they often turn to the hard-line, uncompromising hawks to protect them. I don't believe this is right, but I understand it.

    For a zionist, a coutry of Israël with a lot of arab people would not deserve the name of "jew state" anymore, so this is unacceptable by definition. The creation of Israël started with an ethnic purification, and for maintain that goal to have a jew state, the arab population in Israël must be kept to the minimum. That's why it's forbbiden for an arab woman to marry a jew man, that's why the palestians refugee are locked in Gaza and Cisjordany and will never be accepted to return in Israël. Every zionist agree with that politic.
    Ahhh, no. It is against the law for non-Jews, or anyone that is not deemed sufficiently Jewish (which is under the VERY STRICT Orthodox criteria), to may a Jew - it is not limited to Arabs. This law came about because when Israel was formed, Ben Gurion left the religious elements in the hands of the Rabbinate. He did so because he was an atheist I believe and so was most of the Israeli leadership at the time - and they didn't want to get into a debate over religion with the Rabbinate so they left so rules up to them. It makes sense in some ways but I think this was a mistake. Plenty of Israeli Jews hate these laws too. Many of them go to get married in Cyprus so that they can marry who they want, in the way that they want.

    A truly good way to minimise anti-semitism is to not provoke it.


    You know, I have resisted calling you an anti-Semite and have attempted to give you the benefit of the doubt, but I think now it's pretty clear you are one. These opinions (and the ones that followed) are so irrationally prejudiced, anti-Semitism is the only explanation. You know they say it's growing in Western Europe and if you are anything to go by, that's pretty scary.
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  7. #97
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    Facts of the World:

    #1- Never get involved with a land war in Asia.

    #2- Never go up against a Sicilian when death is on the line.

    #3- Don't try to have an objective discussion with certain members of the human gene pool, ie, they-who-shall-not-be-named.

    Conclusion: Profit.
    Nothing like a good debate.

  8. #98
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    So where did anti-Semitism come from before the existence of Israel?

    Saying "who knows?" in response to "did the Jews bring the Holocaust on themselves?" is pretty interesting. It sounds as though you think there's a strong chance they did.

    You're digging a nice hole for yourself. Do you also think that the black Africans brought the slave trade on themselves? Or the people of TIbet brought the wrath of China on themselves? Or do you only reserve that kind of opinion for the Jews or the Israelis?
    I actually think that WW2 made Israel possible and gave Zionism the pep it never had before the war.

    Anti-semitism and Israel are different things, there's always been anti-semitism but there's not always been Israel, at least not in its present incarnation.

    Also I think anti-semitism is exaggerated and is on a par with other sorts of racism now. Just a couple of points your post made me think about, I know you're responding to SG, I'm not weighing in on his behalf, I dont really read his posts, though just got thinking reading what you wrote

  9. #99
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Anyone see this article? It has some interesting implications involved that relate to what has been discussed in this thread.

    Two powers, Qatar and Iran, try to sway Hamas

    The courtship of Hamas between rivals Iran and Qatar has been one of the Middle East's intriguing subplots of the Arab Spring. The bloodshed in Gaza has now sharpened their competition for influence with the Palestinian militant group and the direction it takes in the future.

    Qatar has sought to use its vast wealth to win over Hamas with investments and humanitarian aid and encouraging Arab partners to do the same — part of the hyper-rich U.S. allied nation's broader campaign to bring under its wing Islamist movements that have risen to power in the region the past two years. Qatar's influence with Hamas could edge it away from armed action toward diplomacy.
    Full article

    I have to admit, I didn't know Qatar was getting involved like that. It could change things if a moderate Muslim nation was giving financial support - that and the conflict in Syria could sway the balance of power away from Iran.
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  10. #100
    Member Isis's Avatar
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    The zionist government of Israel is not a religious government. It is a colonial, ethnic nationalism based on self-righteous racism. Many true Jews of faith recognize this and are repulsed. Zionism is no different than Nazism. It is a threat to the entire planet. Netanyahu is a psychotic, genocidal war criminal. Period. Any zionists that want to argue these points by calling ME racist or "anti-semitic" (which is a joke- because the majority of Israelis came from Poland and Russia. The Arab world is much more semitic than Israeli's.) especially after your government just massacred children and innocents and created billions of dollars in damage last week alone in their 60 year psychotic quest to ethnically cleanse the land of Palestine can go take a hike. Look in the mirror. Reality is reality. I'm sick of arguing with liars and people that defend them. Long Live Palestine. It will never die.

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