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  1. #1
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    Cool The United States... of Europe?

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programme...lk/9769516.stm

    I thought this was an interesting interview with the Polish minister of foreign affairs for a more unified (politically and militarily) Europe that could work cooperatively to fend off the influence of large national powers that each member nation would be at a disadvantage at while bargaining with larger national powers that exist in the modern world like Russia, China, India, and the US. I thought it was quite interesting how he fended off the british interviewer and implied that the UK's foreign policy was in many ways playing as the lapdog to the US and he wished for something greater for Europe than that. Personally, I think a unified Europe would be a great strategic partner and it would please me to no end to have a socio-political-economical region that had a high standard for human rights and the power to contend and disagree with the US on such issues while simultaneously being able to have the military might to counter superpowers with poor human rights. What do you guys think of this?
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    The EU already does disagree with the US on such issues and I'm not sure its power will ever or should ever rely upon military might.

    Orwell wrote about how great he thought a united socialist states of Europe would be.

  3. #3
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Continental Europeans getting snippy at the British is classic stuff.

    Anyhow, I'm kind of thinking it's too late for that. I mean, they can survive the current crisis, but we'll see how it turns out. Part of the very reason for the EU's current problems is that it has been kicking issues of power structure and unity down the road for its whole existence. It never pulled itself together in a way suitable for actually addressing a crisis. They have to sort out the most committed and faithful members, not to mention the most powerful members, and focus more on deepening the EU than widening it, which has given them their current problem with Greece.

    Now, what would it be like? Supposing they can find solidarity between their cultures, it would be a very powerful country, with or without a focus on the military. I'm not so sure it could focus on military development and maintain its high standards in other areas. Part of the USA's problem is that we have a long history of pissing away money on our military and putting the cuts on other things instead, like health care, education, etc...

    I do think that, in spite of how unpopular and even stronger European Union probably is right now, it's the best bet for any European nation that what's to be important and powerful. France, Germany, Britain, they'll probably never be important by themselves again. Does Britain want to be a state of the EU or a protectorate of the USA? That's basically its choice. Germany and France won't even get that choice.
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  4. #4
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Continental Europeans getting snippy at the British is classic stuff.

    Anyhow, I'm kind of thinking it's too late for that. I mean, they can survive the current crisis, but we'll see how it turns out. Part of the very reason for the EU's current problems is that it has been kicking issues of power structure and unity down the road for its whole existence. It never pulled itself together in a way suitable for actually addressing a crisis. They have to sort out the most committed and faithful members, not to mention the most powerful members, and focus more on deepening the EU than widening it, which has given them their current problem with Greece.

    Now, what would it be like? Supposing they can find solidarity between their cultures, it would be a very powerful country, with or without a focus on the military. I'm not so sure it could focus on military development and maintain its high standards in other areas. Part of the USA's problem is that we have a long history of pissing away money on our military and putting the cuts on other things instead, like health care, education, etc...

    I do think that, in spite of how unpopular and even stronger European Union probably is right now, it's the best bet for any European nation that what's to be important and powerful. France, Germany, Britain, they'll probably never be important by themselves again. Does Britain want to be a state of the EU or a protectorate of the USA? That's basically its choice. Germany and France won't even get that choice.
    Do you mean that Germany and France dont have a choice of being a US protectorate?

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    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Do you mean that Germany and France dont have a choice of being a US protectorate?
    I believe he means the structural changes that need to be made will not be made quickly enough for the EU to politically resist the newly emerging powers.

    Where are our republican friends? Surely they can proffer perspective for problems on a scale larger than just the us, yes?
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

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    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    Surely they can proffer perspective for problems on a scale larger than just the us, yes?
    I don't think a United States of Europe will ever happen, among other reasons they would basically have to dismantle and rebuild from scratch all current EU institutions, which were created for the purpose of promoting gradual European integration through bureaucratic inertia rather than democratic support, the result being a huge democratic deficit. The EU can expand its diplomatic power, but it won't gain the cohesion and popular legitimacy of a nation-state.....also, the Eurozone might not even survive intact, so even speculating about greater integration at this point is pointless.

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    Hmmmm I think I've heard this kind of talk before, mostly before 2008...Ask Greece, Spain, Italy etc. if they think it's a good idea.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    I believe he means the structural changes that need to be made will not be made quickly enough for the EU to politically resist the newly emerging powers.

    Where are our republican friends? Surely they can proffer perspective for problems on a scale larger than just the us, yes?
    I think the EU could politically resist emerging powers just fine, they have already and those powers are pretty emerged by now. The EU itself is a kind of emergent power, twice what would have been major game changes in the international balance of power and economic power especially have been buried by US wars or UK economic warfare. Even at that the EU resisted geopolitical pressure to become the keynesian spender capable of producing the global kick, doesnt anyone remember the US and UK engaging in lots of finger waving at Germany? Finally the US made the decision to under right new building in the economy.

    I think the real question is whether or not the EU will become a military power, the US republicans have already put pressure on to try and bring that about, its not happened and that's major because without the pressures which a military-industrial complex and enabler foreign policy bring its possible to have a social market economy, full employment policies and many of the other things which makes the EU very different from the Anglo-Saxon capitalist world.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    I don't think a United States of Europe will ever happen, among other reasons they would basically have to dismantle and rebuild from scratch all current EU institutions, which were created for the purpose of promoting gradual European integration through bureaucratic inertia rather than democratic support, the result being a huge democratic deficit. The EU can expand its diplomatic power, but it won't gain the cohesion and popular legitimacy of a nation-state.....also, the Eurozone might not even survive intact, so even speculating about greater integration at this point is pointless.
    The EU wasnt meant to be about integration or homogenisation, it was about peace, in that respect it worked very well there's not been any fighting in Europe and most of the big wars in human history, including the world wars, have been Eurocentric or legacies of the same.

    The second aim was to ensure food security, it achieved that and did so with such style and success it created massive surpluses, so called meat mountains and wine lakes and through common agricultural policies and central plans as opposed to free markets and private enterprise, which has been tried, even in stateless countries like Somalia, and has been found to be an abject failure.

    The African Union, if it was ever able to defeat the IMF and World Bank, might develop in a similar fashion to the EU and that would be a game changer.

    The social European agenda, which includes the human rights, workers rights and childrens rights agendas, costs and obligations which capitalists really, really hate, was introduced as themeatically universal among European states and it is mainly on the UK which is most often in conflict with it (in the same way the US wont comply with the UN's universal declaration on the rights of the child).

    The EU is no a federal union, it is in the true sense a confederal union with a rotating presidency/chair and as a result I would say that the autonomy it grants to member states would qualify it as having less of a democratic deficit than power blocs, like the US or China, which have much more centralised political unions.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Che Parla View Post
    Hmmmm I think I've heard this kind of talk before, mostly before 2008...Ask Greece, Spain, Italy etc. if they think it's a good idea.
    That sort of Euroscepticism always intrigues me, global capitalist crisis takes place, EU gets blame, protests against EU take the form of demanding and richer member states provide strings free money from their taxpayers to provide relief to other member states unprepared for the capitalist crisis and unable for the post-crisis world.

    What sort of secessionists would want more money from the union?

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