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  1. #21
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Che Parla View Post
    I'm sure you know much better than the guy from Germany about the history of his country, their culture, and the zeitgeist - as it were - in that country right now, Mr.Lark. Nothing to worry about then, good times!
    That's interesting, so are you saying that you dont want me to post on anything occuring outside of Ireland or just that you dont want me posting at all?

    Its obvious how threatened you are but STFU and GTFO are poor responses to that.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    That's interesting, so are you saying that you dont want me to post on anything occuring outside of Ireland or just that you dont want me posting at all?
    I am just wondering how you could know all this so confidently with no supporting evidence...

  3. #23
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    It´s complicated. Bordering regions have similar traditions and life-outlooks, but nation states are (naturally) made of bordering and very far-away regions. So, if I, as north-eastern Italian, can make myself understood perfectly with a person from Bayern, it might be more difficult for someone from Rostock to culturally "integrate" the perspective of somone from Toulouse - just to name three countries that share central european borders.
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  4. #24
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    It´s complicated. Bordering regions have similar traditions and life-outlooks, but nation states are (naturally) made of bordering and very far-away regions. So, if I, as north-eastern Italian, can make myself understood perfectly with a person from Bayern, it might be more difficult for someone from Rostock to culturally "integrate" the perspective of somone from Toulouse - just to name three countries that share central european borders.
    I agree that there's big cultural differences, I also think that's a good thing and what makes the EU different from the US which tries to be more uniform or homogenous, although are those cultural differences great enough to prevent common fiscal and spending policies?

  5. #25
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    i dont think eu should get any stronger, but i do think thats its a good idea for european countries to cooperate with some issues. most the stuff that came with finland joining EU was that some toxins used in foods became legal(for example pringles has some ingredient that was banned in finland before eu), some laws were introduced that really dont fit the circumstances that we have in finland(if i remember correctly, something with when you have to change to winter tires to your car and some stuff that take away some of your personal freedom, like forcing you to give your finger prints if you want a passport, i wonder when they want to insert a chip inside my head that prevents me from making crimes or for tracking me). food(and pretty much everything) prices went up like hell when we got the new currency(many things that costed 1 mark before, now costs 1 euro, which is 6 times the price, but this shows mostly on things that cost like under 10 euros). in the past we didnt have many homeless people and no beggars, those who were homeless were so hard core alcoholics that they bought beer with the money that government gave them for rent or stuff like that, now we got these romanian bums all over the city begging for change, who arent even refugees(refugees would get money from government like citizens of finland), but who are EU citizens and thus have the right for free travel in EU, so they come here to beg, cuz in romania there is no way of getting much money with begging. etc etc

    we had guys like this http://www.badassoftheweek.com/hayha.html for a reason, that reason wasnt that we could give away our independence to some new world order..
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  6. #26
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    i dont think eu should get any stronger, but i do think thats its a good idea for european countries to cooperate with some issues. most the stuff that came with finland joining EU was that some toxins used in foods became legal(for example pringles has some ingredient that was banned in finland before eu), some laws were introduced that really dont fit the circumstances that we have in finland(if i remember correctly, something with when you have to change to winter tires to your car and some stuff that take away some of your personal freedom, like forcing you to give your finger prints if you want a passport, i wonder when they want to insert a chip inside my head that prevents me from making crimes or for tracking me). food(and pretty much everything) prices went up like hell when we got the new currency(many things that costed 1 mark before, now costs 1 euro, which is 6 times the price, but this shows mostly on things that cost like under 10 euros). in the past we didnt have many homeless people and no beggars, those who were homeless were so hard core alcoholics that they bought beer with the money that government gave them for rent or stuff like that, now we got these romanian bums all over the city begging for change, who arent even refugees(refugees would get money from government like citizens of finland), but who are EU citizens and thus have the right for free travel in EU, so they come here to beg, cuz in romania there is no way of getting much money with begging. etc etc

    we had guys like this http://www.badassoftheweek.com/hayha.html for a reason, that reason wasnt that we could give away our independence to some new world order..
    There are a lot of rumanians begging in my country too, I wouldnt attribute that to the EU. I would attribute that to a combination of travelling and begging being within their culture, no one is under any obligation to give money to beggers or to pay them any attention, especially where there is ample support available from government, of which they are pretty much guaranteed to be recipients. So that doesnt bother me, whether its to do with the EU or not, which I dont believe it is.

    I've never heard of the EU actually liberalising laws and regulation of foods, in fact the UK has been engaged in battles because they have had to exercise stricter control over food production and import because they would like there to less stringent standards, surprisingly this is popular with UK voters, even without camoflaging the issue by reframing the debate as being one about freedom and bureaucracy. I dont know why people would actively campaign to be fed poison by profiteers but we live in strange times.

    So far as strengthening the EU goes, I just would need to know what that means, militarisation or unified foreign policy? No, I dont think that's a good idea, Bush did, Blair did and still does and wants to see a Pax Europa to succeed the Pax Americana which succeeded the Pax Britannia and Germany never bought into the idea during that whole time in which those elements were in office. If there are any militaristic elements in Europe they are the French and they have already engaged in joint operations with the british and share some destroyers at sea presently so far as I know.

    The militarised version of the EU would not threaten the status quo of the geopolitical order and it would not present to the world a much different taxation, spending and attendent distributive and prosperity paradigm, that's exactly what the neo-cons like Bush and Blair want. An alternative to that they dont like the idea of, if the EU were to develop as a mixed economy erring on the side of state subsidy and support for full employment etc. it would be pretty radical as an alternative to anglo-saxon capitalism, that sort of new world order I could stand. Besides that the UK doesnt like the idea of France becoming Europes "financial district" given its dependency upon global finance to have anything to show what so ever as a nation and that has lead to much of the UK's in again-out again attitude to European development.

    The EU has already demonstrated, when Bosnia took place and when the invasion of Georgia by Russia, who was considered a closer tie to the European union, that it has no hard power and is unlikely to try to deal with Russian aggression in that fashion. I've no doubt that the US used that in its own geopolitical diplomatic game to remind the British that if their relationship to the US changed dramatically enough that the oil reserves off the UK's coastline could be really tempting in a future resource starved world experiencing Russian military build up.

    As new world orders go the EU is not one I'd be worried about to be honest. Its record on human rights out paces any other power bloc you choose to mention.

  7. #27
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    There are a lot of rumanians begging in my country too, I wouldnt attribute that to the EU. I would attribute that to a combination of travelling and begging being within their culture, no one is under any obligation to give money to beggers or to pay them any attention, especially where there is ample support available from government, of which they are pretty much guaranteed to be recipients. So that doesnt bother me, whether its to do with the EU or not, which I dont believe it is.
    before recently, romanians werent allowed to stay in finland, now they can cuz eu. and by romanians i mean citizens of romania, not gypsies.


    I've never heard of the EU actually liberalising laws and regulation of foods, in fact the UK has been engaged in battles because they have had to exercise stricter control over food production and import because they would like there to less stringent standards, surprisingly this is popular with UK voters, even without camoflaging the issue by reframing the debate as being one about freedom and bureaucracy. I dont know why people would actively campaign to be fed poison by profiteers but we live in strange times.
    Eu isnt regulating food and thus making prices higher, its the euro currency that made it easy for markets to raise prices and all the money related mumbo jumbo that came with the new currency.


    So far as strengthening the EU goes, I just would need to know what that means, militarisation or unified foreign policy? No, I dont think that's a good idea, Bush did, Blair did and still does and wants to see a Pax Europa to succeed the Pax Americana which succeeded the Pax Britannia and Germany never bought into the idea during that whole time in which those elements were in office. If there are any militaristic elements in Europe they are the French and they have already engaged in joint operations with the british and share some destroyers at sea presently so far as I know.
    well the euro currency is one example of strengthening it, also they had some talk about some euro constitution laws, also militarization would be one thing.


    The militarised version of the EU would not threaten the status quo of the geopolitical order and it would not present to the world a much different taxation, spending and attendent distributive and prosperity paradigm, that's exactly what the neo-cons like Bush and Blair want. An alternative to that they dont like the idea of, if the EU were to develop as a mixed economy erring on the side of state subsidy and support for full employment etc. it would be pretty radical as an alternative to anglo-saxon capitalism, that sort of new world order I could stand. Besides that the UK doesnt like the idea of France becoming Europes "financial district" given its dependency upon global finance to have anything to show what so ever as a nation and that has lead to much of the UK's in again-out again attitude to European development.
    militarization of eu would be a really bad thing, because russia would instantly see it as a threat against them, like they see NATO as a threat. also what if for example there was a war with russia and some other country who is part of the same military organization as finland is, not only would this make finland the enemy of russia, but also it would mean that finland has to be part of this war and that other countries could use finland as an strategic place to attack russia(if you look where finland is located, this would be THE place to invade russia). or if they werent attacking the russia, we would need to defend ourselves against russia, because us being in the EU military or NATO would make us at war against russia.


    The EU has already demonstrated, when Bosnia took place and when the invasion of Georgia by Russia, who was considered a closer tie to the European union, that it has no hard power and is unlikely to try to deal with Russian aggression in that fashion. I've no doubt that the US used that in its own geopolitical diplomatic game to remind the British that if their relationship to the US changed dramatically enough that the oil reserves off the UK's coastline could be really tempting in a future resource starved world experiencing Russian military build up.
    yea, but its a different thing to be in good relations for example to NATO(or this hypothetical EU military union) than to be part of it. being part of it means that your country is at war with the aggressor, even if your country would oppose the war and no one attacked your country. when it comes to being just in good terms with some country, you can decide whether you help or not.


    As new world orders go the EU is not one I'd be worried about to be honest. Its record on human rights out paces any other power bloc you choose to mention.
    how about the fact that EU laws require that provider of the internet services is required to keep log of everything that i do on my computer for(if i remember right) at least 12 months(or maybe it was 6 months or two years)? its not about braking the human rights as in cops bashing peoples heads for fun, its about slowly systematically(so that people wouldnt oppose to them as much and get used to not being tracked on the street or having mandatory facial recognition on surveillance cameras on streets etc) creating a more controlled society with for example keeping logs of internet use etc thats the alarming thing. you can see similar stuff happening in USA too.

    so no, im not worried that the new world order would be done by russia for example, im pretty sure that they would be against something like that.

    edit. the logs were 6 months, not 12 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Retention_Directive
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  8. #28
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    before recently, romanians werent allowed to stay in finland, now they can cuz eu. and by romanians i mean citizens of romania, not gypsies.
    I thought the population we were talking about was largely romani gypsies, perhaps its not.


    Eu isnt regulating food and thus making prices higher, its the euro currency that made it easy for markets to raise prices and all the money related mumbo jumbo that came with the new currency.
    Yeah, I dont think you are right about that but I know it has been reported that way. There are a lot of debates about the food security programmes of the EU, the deregulation which the IMF and other free market organisations want will only result in European markets being flooded with lesser produce from the agrarian global south, whatever benefits this has for both the agrarian nations and European consumers will be limited and offset in my opinion. There would be corn exports from the agrarian south largely similar to those sung about in Irish famine tunes like the fields of athenry.

    well the euro currency is one example of strengthening it, also they had some talk about some euro constitution laws, also militarization would be one thing.
    I'm opposed to militarisation, so was Germany last I checked which still only has a defence force themselves so far as I know, France is a different story like I said but neither of those nations are the whole of the EU, the EU already has a constitution, what you are talking about is perhaps greater fiscal and monetary policy harmonisation. I can understand why that is desirable, especially to German voters who have bailed out other member states repeatedly. I can also understand why some people are concerned about it because of how Europe has operated as a "bosses and bankers Europe" to date. What way is the single currency a strengthening of Europe btw? Just asking because you could have a different idea about that than I do.


    militarization of eu would be a really bad thing, because russia would instantly see it as a threat against them, like they see NATO as a threat. also what if for example there was a war with russia and some other country who is part of the same military organization as finland is, not only would this make finland the enemy of russia, but also it would mean that finland has to be part of this war and that other countries could use finland as an strategic place to attack russia(if you look where finland is located, this would be THE place to invade russia). or if they werent attacking the russia, we would need to defend ourselves against russia, because us being in the EU military or NATO would make us at war against russia.
    Oh, I understand and agree about that, its a serious issue, I thought about it when the invasion of Georgia took place and Russia has already manipulated fuel supplies in its own version of sabre rattling.


    yea, but its a different thing to be in good relations for example to NATO(or this hypothetical EU military union) than to be part of it. being part of it means that your country is at war with the aggressor, even if your country would oppose the war and no one attacked your country. when it comes to being just in good terms with some country, you can decide whether you help or not.
    I understand entirely what you mean, a lot of the euroskeptic nationalists in Ireland have opposed the EU on the basis that it compromises Ireland's historic neutrality, I mean the country was neutral during WW2 they are pretty sure about that neutrality thing. On the other hand I dont know that if any power bloc were to menace or invade nations on the present borders of Europe that it could really be ignored for long, any power bloc doing so would be willing to engage in other acts of aggression too.

    Although I would say that much of the present low intensity wars being fought elsewhere in the world, Georgia, Cechnia etc. by Russia, Afghanistan, Iraq by the US are about providing examples of super power military might in sort of proxy struggle, its a kind of "look what we can do, dont mess with us".




    how about the fact that EU laws require that provider of the internet services is required to keep log of everything that i do on my computer for(if i remember right) at least 12 months(or maybe it was 6 months or two years)? its not about braking the human rights as in cops bashing peoples heads for fun, its about slowly systematically(so that people wouldnt oppose to them as much and get used to not being tracked on the street or having mandatory facial recognition on surveillance cameras on streets etc) creating a more controlled society with for example keeping logs of internet use etc thats the alarming thing. you can see similar stuff happening in USA too.

    so no, im not worried that the new world order would be done by russia for example, im pretty sure that they would be against something like that.
    You think Russia would be against data retention and data retention amounts to a new world order? Really?

    You're right that the US has been working on internet control but so have the Russians, the KGB and FSB had plans which easily rivalled those of the FBI's project echelon or anything like that, the internet is the next battle ground and hackers are recruited, kidnapped or subject to extraordinary renditions but there are a lot of players in that game, not just states, not just intelligence communities but mafias, organised crime, other political groups, all of which can and do threaten any individual's privacy or security online, so when I hear about properly constituted democracies making decisions about internet security I consider it in the same way as I would the monopoly on force which is behind properly constituted police or standing armies. Just saying. Technology is not going to stop developing because people are anxious about it having collectivist, centralist or authoritarian applications or potentialities.

  9. #29
    Supreme High Commander Andy's Avatar
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    Purely from an economic stand point, I dislike the idea of the UK tying itself so closely to the EU. It's like putting all your eggs in one basket. If something goes wrong (like a financial crisis, picking an example at random) you feel the full force of it. Better to spread ones trade as far around the world as possible. That way problems in one area effect you less. Better economic security. And why not? The commonwealth is a good start. Even if you loose a bit of profit in the short term, I think the stability is worth it.
    Don't make whine out of sour grapes.

  10. #30
    F CK all I need is U ilikeitlikethat's Avatar
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    It's time Europe shut up and did what the UK wanted to do, we're a part of Europe, we're a geographical economic minority powerhouse that might get fined unless it votes for prisoners to vote, so we're going to pay for time for that before the deadline this Friday or, be liable for a fine?
    The UK government is doing radical changes at home in terms of welfare and yet it has to deal with negeotions with the EU and whilst trying to boost economic growth that is both dependent on the Eurozone and Wall Street; so really, if anyone one of them fucks up, we're screwed, unless we trade with China, and everyone does that.

    I only mention Wall Street as, I am worried about America falling back into recession if that thing expires. That tax thing. IDK, I'm British, I live 3, 000 miles away but, that could effect me, so, yeah.

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