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  1. #31
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    I think some of this . . . need for enthusiastically supporting some team or party or whatever is left over from when there were more little tribal wars. We're probably kind of wired for weird, largely baseless passionate loyalty and we can't really just go out with a bunch of friends and raid the neighboring village anymore. This is what we're left with.

    I consider it better because being widowed and/or raped and/or enslaved multiple times in my lifetime is not appealing to me. Then again, it might not be multiple times -- there was always dying in childbirth to cut short one's suffering.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  2. #32
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    because repbulicans would have treated us nice anyway if they would have won

  3. #33
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I think it is important to have more compassion, trust, and understanding for our friends and family who have a different political orientation than the public figures who agree with our position. We should continue to question authority, especially those whom we choose to follow. I think the most dangerous aspect of team spirit is the unquestioning admiration for one candidate or the other. I found myself quite turned off by images of Obama's children saying "vote for my daddy" or pictures of Romney dancing tenderly with his wife because it doesn't appeal to reason. These public figures are not friends or family, we do not know them personally, but are presented with propagandized images and constructed platitudes and soundbites.
    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    As for the OP, the schadenfreude bothers me, but for a different reason. I voted for Obama, but it's not like we elected Abraham Lincoln. In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king, and we re-elected Obama mostly because of what we found distasteful about the other guy and his party. Because of that, it's kind of unseemly to celebrate so vindictively.
    Agreed, and I think this is part of the problem that I attempted to articulate in the OP. It's the unreasoned, unprincipled acceptance of "our" authority figure that scares me. It's as though the victory is a personal moral one for these people, and that gives them some sort of license. I mean, I don't really have much sympathy for someone who is so emotionally invested in the election that they would get their little fee fees hurt by idiotic FB posts (regardless of which side won), but it is despicable to me that anyone would have the line of thought that goes, "we won, we are the morally superior group, therefore we are allowed to do X, Y, and Z, even if we might otherwise not do it because we're morally superior," even if it is only manifesting itself as stupid social media muck.

    And it's especially despicable when it's the people supposedly on one's own side. It's easy to dismiss the histrionics of the other as "them being them...since they suck and all that, we expected it," but when faced with the same behavior from someone you (at least partially) identify with, it's enough to make one hate people in general.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  4. #34
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I think it is important to have more compassion, trust, and understanding for our friends and family who have a different political orientation than the public figures who agree with our position. We should continue to question authority, especially those whom we choose to follow. I think the most dangerous aspect of team spirit is the unquestioning admiration for one candidate or the other. I found myself quite turned off by images of Obama's children saying "vote for my daddy" or pictures of Romney dancing tenderly with his wife because it doesn't appeal to reason. These public figures are not friends or family, we do not know them personally, but are presented with propagandized images and constructed platitudes and soundbites.
    Agreed. I don't understand why such things even have bearing -- and maybe I am wrong here, but I'm making the assumption that the bell curve of people (which includes ROmney and Obama) actually love their kids if they have them, or have at least an okay relationship with their spouse. These ads seem to suggest that only Obama's kids actually like their daddy, or only Romney actually loves his wife, if they're being used as some kind of distinguishing characteristic. At least, that's the feeling I get when I see how the fervent on either side respond to them... that for some reason, they think the other guy doesn't have these things.

    I mean, some of my dear friends are pretty conservative. My one friend is very liberal with social issues but very conservative with fiscal issues, and was very angry about Romney losing. Yet she has been a fervent supporter of me and my life situation. The same goes with another female friend who is very very evangelical and totally Romney and heavily pro-life... and yet she accepts me as a person with legitimate reasons for making what life choices I need. (and hell, well, even Nerd Girl was fervently in my camp, which would be considered a very liberal stance, yet on matters of voting and politics seems to be very conservative otherwise.) It's almost too big for me to grasp how to reconcile those things, I can only accept them and it helps me remember that people are complex, and that just because they vote a certain way doesn't mean they are the enemy or someone diametrically opposed to me. The support of friends like these has made a huge difference in my life.

    I feel cautiously happy that Obama won just because I believe in the basic premise of equality for all, healthcare as a human right, equality for gay marriage, help for the impoverished, focus on science and research, protecting the environment, regulating corporations, etc.
    I would say something similar, although I'm still concerned about our economy and want to make sure that we use our money responsibly. Party is no guarantee that money will be used wisely, though; Bush squandered a great deal of what wealth/surplus we were going to bank, on the war he wanted (or felt we had) to fight.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  5. #35
    Senior Member BAJ's Avatar
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    I searched my area for groups to hang out with. Basically what I found was patriot groups, which are like tea party nuts, or freethought groups which are atheistic and liberal.

    I wanted to find a group which was not antagonistic to the other groups, but basically I had difficulty finding one. It seems you need to be against some other group for cohesion.

  6. #36
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    ...I mean, some of my dear friends are pretty conservative. My one friend is very liberal with social issues but very conservative with fiscal issues, and was very angry about Romney losing. Yet she has been a fervent supporter of me and my life situation. The same goes with another female friend who is very very evangelical and totally Romney and heavily pro-life... and yet she accepts me as a person with legitimate reasons for making what life choices I need. (and hell, well, even Nerd Girl was fervently in my camp, which would be considered a very liberal stance, yet on matters of voting and politics seems to be very conservative otherwise.) It's almost too big for me to grasp how to reconcile those things, I can only accept them and it helps me remember that people are complex, and that just because they vote a certain way doesn't mean they are the enemy or someone diametrically opposed to me. The support of friends like these has made a huge difference in my life...
    I face the same thing, only there seems to be an issue with ultra-conservative friends and family that if we disagree, they will personally attack me, so I have had to avoid topics even when these are brought up. The Right wing mentality influenced by Fox News, Rush Limbaugh and the sort has become radicalized enough to alter people's personalities and their concept of personal relationships when their minds are in those frames. It is because so much is fear based, so they feel justified in pushing things to ultimatums and risking the destroying relationships and making radical choices that place groups of people and the environment at risk. And they do it so often to protect the elite they have been brainwashed into defending.

    I think you will often find that people's political and religious orientations reflect their social connections. We have a strong social and instinctual drive to be like-minded with whatever group to which we belong. The individuals making a meaningful social connection to you could well have a larger social group that pulls them towards the Right. My guess is that if their churches, friends, family, etc. were predominately liberal, that they would be as well. People generally like to assume they think for themselves, but we don't. It takes a rare person to think independently of their social group because doing so will alienate them and place them at risk of lessening or losing their support system. That is why it is so confusing and threatening to people when a family member thinks differently because it implies that they are breaking social ties and distancing themselves. One on level it is personal - at least moreso than is easy for people to admit.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
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    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  7. #37
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    What do you think?
    I think I saw a lot of far worse things in the wake of every right wing victory in a US power struggle (which elections are looking more and more like) than any of the supposed "gloating" which has gone on in the wake of Obama's election.

    I think that both the state and liberal or democrat public have been pretty cognizant and courteous, whereas conservatives have been extremely ill tempered, much, much more so than I've known them to be and generally I find most conservatives to be very ill tempered people indeed. I'm not talking about the many shades of conservatism here and not particularly the different kinds of cultural or philosophical conservatives I know but the, sometimes radical and radicalising, political element in US society and politics.

    Infact I would go so far as to suggest that there was a media strategy to make this election appear like a much closer run thing than it actually was, the reasons are anyones guess, it could just be about hype and interest to sell papers or infotainment but it could also be as likely to be about placating an increasingly unstable and destabilising strain of politics and marginal pressure.

  8. #38
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I face the same thing, only there seems to be an issue with ultra-conservative friends and family that if we disagree, they will personally attack me, so I have had to avoid topics even when these are brought up. The Right wing mentality influenced by Fox News, Rush Limbaugh and the sort has become radicalized enough to alter people's personalities and their concept of personal relationships when their minds are in those frames. It is because so much is fear based, so they feel justified in pushing things to ultimatums and risking the destroying relationships and making radical choices that place groups of people and the environment at risk. And they do it so often to protect the elite they have been brainwashed into defending.

    I think you will often find that people's political and religious orientations reflect their social connections. We have a strong social and instinctual drive to be like-minded with whatever group to which we belong. The individuals making a meaningful social connection to you could well have a larger social group that pulls them towards the Right. My guess is that if their churches, friends, family, etc. were predominately liberal, that they would be as well. People generally like to assume they think for themselves, but we don't. It takes a rare person to think independently of their social group because doing so will alienate them and place them at risk of lessening or losing their support system. That is why it is so confusing and threatening to people when a family member thinks differently because it implies that they are breaking social ties and distancing themselves. One on level it is personal - at least moreso than is easy for people to admit.
    I dont think that this is restricted to the radical right by any means, I think it happens on the left wing too. There's all sorts of groupthink and other trappings and its a mistake to consider it the preserve of one political faction.

    Although I do think you make some good points here, after the first election of Obama I saw some changes in people I didnt expect to ever see. To be honest a lot of the time I think conservatives honest to God believe their own propaganda.

  9. #39
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I dont think that this is restricted to the radical right by any means, I think it happens on the left wing too. There's all sorts of groupthink and other trappings and its a mistake to consider it the preserve of one political faction.

    Although I do think you make some good points here, after the first election of Obama I saw some changes in people I didnt expect to ever see. To be honest a lot of the time I think conservatives honest to God believe their own propaganda.
    I agree, and part of my point is that it is not possible for any person to think independently of their social contexts. Realizing these influences is the first step towards comparatively independent thought, or at least thought capable of integrating and creating individual preferences from a wider variety of sources. Any fear-based ideology will tend to create a strong "Us vs. Them" dynamic which will foster a tighter group think, and the Right-wing sources I mentioned do focus on fear-based reasoning.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  10. #40
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Meh. Americans get histrionic for no reason whatsoever and always have, as far as I can tell. They cry when they lose, they cry when they win. They cry if their X-factor audition doesn't go well, or if it does. Everything is overblown and overdramatised and sickeningly mawkish. We are used to Americans being irrational, and simply roll our eyes. What is irritating is how we seem to have caught some of that hysteria ourselves. The British stiff upper lip has begun quivering most disagreeably, and I blame you lads with all your low-brow tribal chanting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    So, in response, to the people on my facebook -- the same ones who have been writing obnoxious political messages for the last several months (and, I should add, apparently I have no conservative friends, cuz I struggle to remember a single Republican-leaning message the entire time)
    Interesting "friends" you have ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

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