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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    I agree with you that it's better that people are at least involved than totally indifferent, and that this outpouring of feeeeling is a result of idealistic people having the opportunity to vote.

    However, I don't find the sports team comparison to be valid. Sports loyalty in a way is supposed to be irrational. The derision and joy and disappointment and all the emotions... it's not based in anything besides pure loyalty. You don't root for your team because you have looked at all the teams in the league and come to a conclusion on which team is best. You root because it's your home, your friends, your family. Blind loyalty. Totally appropriate for sports, even admirable. In my opinion, misapplied in a democracy (or democratic republic or whatever we have).
    Another excellent point.

    I've never been remotely sure of your type, but take pride in having just schooled an INTP.

  2. #22
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    A view that would be echoed by an unimaginably small portion of the populace.
    Apparently, so it an understanding of statistics, so I don't exactly wear that as a badge of shame.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Excellent post. Couldn't agree more.

    I spent election night at a party for an Independent candidate running for US Congress, and, even before I got there, as soon as I heard that New Hampshire went to Obama, which was very early on, I knew it was over. If New Hampshire went to Obama, then Romney's needed 2-3% swing in his favor (caused by some combination of inaccurate polling turnout assumptions, undecideds swinging in favor of Romney, et al) was seemingly not happening; when I stopped by a city council meeting with my friend beforehand, and heard that Obama was (barely) ahead in Florida, that put the last nail in the coffin. So I showed up to the party already having figured Obama'd won it, and just hoping that this Independent candidate I'd supported/volunteered for would win, so the night wouldn't be a total loss. And, as I mentioned on here before, I'd already grown sick of the election several days before it happened, and was just over it, wanted it to be done with, and had my rationalization for either candidate winning prefabricated and ready to be deployed (whereas some people like to think of me as partisan and close-minded on here, even the arguments I make, and most genuinely believe, for a particular side, I question -- are they really true? how strong is the evidence, really? are there any specific circumstances to this time in history that make these arguments less correct for this specific moment? -- and can see potential internal contradictions, and I can (if they exist) generally see the potential merits of the other side's argument.

    So I found it just really oddly at contrast with my reaction when I told an intern for the campaign who I'd been volunteering with some hours later that it was over and Obama had won: she visibly started trying to hold back tears, and then clearly had no shot at doing so, and got up and left the area to go be by herself/go to the ladies' room.

    I mean, I have had my thoughts about the potential disaster of a second Obama term, particularly because of the road I fear it might lead us down, but, I mean, once the reality of him winning it was there, it was pretty easy for me to let go of that, accept things as they are, hope for the best, and that my fearful visions aren't where we're heading, and to get on with life. Perhaps it's an Ni dom thing.

    Anyway, my point, and I especially felt this later, as I watched the crowds at Obama's acceptance speech, is that, far too much, our elections resemble two camps of warring barely-better-than-monkeys, with each side just hooting and hollering for their particular monkey leader. There's really very little reason involved. It's just a bunch of emotional bullshit, and tribal warfare/ass-patting.


    So, in response, to the people on my facebook -- the same ones who have been writing obnoxious political messages for the last several months (and, I should add, apparently I have no conservative friends, cuz I struggle to remember a single Republican-leaning message the entire time) -- who are continuing on with their retarded hyperpartisan posting, clearly completely blind to the contradictions in their behavior, the blatant double standards, how big of fucking partisan hacks they actually are, I've just been responding with completely unemotional, non-flaming, reasoned posts, that reveal them for exactly what they are, but without getting nasty. It's fun to see them writhe under the glare of unvarnished reason, like so many worms shriveling in the sun.

    I suspect their idiotic gloating and blatant double standards will slow.

    That, or they'll just defriend me.
    I agree with a lot of what you say here, but especially the bold. I had my moments of "Blechrerwasdfasfdasdf" but then the emotional wave passed and it was time to look onward and upward to the future. The decision has been made. Talking about how it has been made does absolutely nothing productive.

    On the second bolded paragraph: This is why I try to stay out of politics. The overemotional states of both side are just ridiculous. Like, I don't even understand the point of getting this emotionally upset, and I am a pretty emotional person. (However, I tend to get most emotional over things like kittens mewing helplessly in a basket of marshmallows, or God help me in admitting this, that damn movie "the Notebook.")

    There is a creepy level of ownership that occurs between people as individuals and politics on a national scale. Maybe it's the style of how politicians entice us these days, but it is a death spiral that should be halted.

    America has been divided sharply in half for well over a decade now. I am not trying to be melodramatic but at times I feel like there is this secret civil war brewing under the surface of the culture. Maybe no bayonets have been thrust into the torsos of our brethren yet, but are the words slung between the sides any less barbed? Not really.

  4. #24
    Senior Member BAJ's Avatar
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    Actually, though, I voted Libertarian for the first time because I'm sick of both groups. This debt is out of control, etc. This way I can't gloat since Gary Johnson only won a small percentage of the vote. Also, I can criticize both sides now!

  5. #25
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BAJ View Post
    Actually, though, I voted Libertarian for the first time because I'm sick of both groups. This debt is out of control, etc. This way I can't gloat since Gary Johnson only won a small percentage of the vote. Also, I can criticize both sides now!
    I too was fairly certain that my candidate would not win. Maybe it's different when you know there's no chance.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Sadly, that's exactly how some people approach politics in our country. It's a home team / family / friends / blind loyalty, with all the logic stemming from the loyalty rather than a lengthy cognitive process resulting in a decision.

    As far as social media goes, when did FaceBook really kick in? Not until the 2008 election, I think. Before then, it was MySpace, which was pretty unwieldy and cobbled together. And Twitter only really took off in the last few years, I think.
    A lot of this is the fault of the media's presentation of the political race. The commercials and presentation are designed to get people riled up, and add that to a sports based culture of team spirit, this attitude is going to continue.

    I think it is important to have more compassion, trust, and understanding for our friends and family who have a different political orientation than the public figures who agree with our position. We should continue to question authority, especially those whom we choose to follow. I think the most dangerous aspect of team spirit is the unquestioning admiration for one candidate or the other. I found myself quite turned off by images of Obama's children saying "vote for my daddy" or pictures of Romney dancing tenderly with his wife because it doesn't appeal to reason. These public figures are not friends or family, we do not know them personally, but are presented with propagandized images and constructed platitudes and soundbites.

    I feel cautiously happy that Obama won just because I believe in the basic premise of equality for all, healthcare as a human right, equality for gay marriage, help for the impoverished, focus on science and research, protecting the environment, regulating corporations, etc. What matters most are the laws that are passed, not the charisma of the candidate. On the spectrum from "every man for himself = freedom" to "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need" (at least in a democratic context), I lean towards the latter because dominating power structures always emerge and at least in a democratic process there is a possible system to moderate power structures with accountability to the public who maintain some level of control through voting. It isn't the individual vs. the government, but the corporation vs. the government, with the government having at least the possibility of remaining in the hands of the society to moderate.
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  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    However, I don't find the sports team comparison to be valid. Sports loyalty in a way is supposed to be irrational. The derision and joy and disappointment and all the emotions... it's not based in anything besides pure loyalty. You don't root for your team because you have looked at all the teams in the league and come to a conclusion on which team is best. You root because it's your home, your friends, your family. Blind loyalty. Totally appropriate for sports, even admirable. In my opinion, misapplied in a democracy (or democratic republic or whatever we have).
    100% agree with the distinction you make.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I find the the distinction totally arbitrary, have a difficult time digesting anything that is intended to be totally irrational, and must say I find sports fanaticism inappropriate and un-admirable in all circumstances.
    Some things are just supposed to be fun. Pop music signifies absolutely nothing, yet sometimes 20,000 people show up to scream their heads off for a band probably made up of sketchy people. And that's okay.

    As for the OP, the schadenfreude bothers me, but for a different reason. I voted for Obama, but it's not like we elected Abraham Lincoln. In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king, and we re-elected Obama mostly because of what we found distasteful about the other guy and his party. Because of that, it's kind of unseemly to celebrate so vindictively.
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  8. #28
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    Many of my liberal friends would have cried if Romney had won, and many conservative friends would have rubbed it in their faces too. Not cool. It's unkind to laugh at people mourning, because their sorrow is real.

    At the same time, I kind of don't find the source of that sorrow to be "legitimate". The extreme emotional reaction people display upon hearing the outcome is somewhat telling of something kind of not... right with the culture. It is a weird kind of emotional fervor, beyond a thoughtful consideration of whom you think would do a better job. Personal identity becomes wrapped up in the outcome. Whether or not they supported their party's candidate in the primaries, come election time, somehow many people on both sides have come to see their candidate as a beacon of righteousness, and the opponent representing the source of everything that is wrong in the country. They are willing to overlook errors of judgement in their own candidate, and valid points that the other candidate makes. It's like an inability to deal with reality or something.

    The people who have actually done research, read about issues, formed a calm and reasoned opinion*, they aren't the ones I've seen despondent over the results, and they aren't the ones I've seen gloating either. In my opinion, the mature outcome for people whose candidate won is to feel glad, celebrate a bit, and then begin to reach out to the other side and begin to consider how we will rebuild the country and deal with the money issues. And the mature outcome for people whose candidate lost is to feel disappointed, and then begin to reach out to the other side and begin to consider how we will rebuild the country and deal with the money issues.



    *for the record I don't consider myself one of the people who is very politically knowledgeable - there's so much I don't know and understand about politics, just my observation of other people I know
    Nice post! I couldn’t agree more.

    What’s funny is that I’ve noticed in myself a visceral reaction to seeing appeals to emotional reactions on either end more than having an emotional reaction to content. The liberals do it too, though the conservative side is more obvious to me. But either way it makes me feel like I’m watching someone rile a herd of sheep off a cliff. There’s so much weird emotional attachment going on. And the strange thing to me is that underlying it all, on both sides, it seems there’s a deep contempt and fear of others gaining some kind of control to exploit the fruits of our own labor: in conservatives, it’s the ‘lazy people who feel entitled to free food, shelter and medical care’; in liberals, it’s the psychopath CEOs and corporations. From the conservative people on my fb, there were a bunch of spiteful, histrionic “Well I may as well quit my job now and let someone else pay for the cost of my living!” posts. Each side has a boogeyman who wants to exploit their labor, and it seems like a whole lot of somethin’ somethin’ is getting transferred en masse to one of these two ‘evils’. I waffle back and forth between being disgusted with social Darwinsim and wondering how much of that disgust is just more of this weird transferring going on.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Sadly, that's exactly how some people approach politics in our country. It's a home team / family / friends / blind loyalty, with all the logic stemming from the loyalty rather than a lengthy cognitive process resulting in a decision.
    Totally.

    (edit: and thanks Jennifer for letting me know the double post disappeared.)
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  9. #29
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    I too was fairly certain that my candidate would not win. Maybe it's different when you know there's no chance.
    Well at least you can mourn early, if you must. It only shows how sure some were about Romney's victory, i guess.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  10. #30
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    100% agree with the distinction you make.



    Some things are just supposed to be fun. Pop music signifies absolutely nothing, yet sometimes 20,000 people show up to scream their heads off for a band probably made up of sketchy people. And that's okay.

    As for the OP, the schadenfreude bothers me, but for a different reason. I voted for Obama, but it's not like we elected Abraham Lincoln. In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king, and we re-elected Obama mostly because of what we found distasteful about the other guy and his party. Because of that, it's kind of unseemly to celebrate so vindictively.
    The idea that sports are supposed to be fun almost works against how dramatically people respond to it. That doesn't look like fun to me.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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