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  1. #11
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    Ok, this is what drives me insane. There is always this "he started it!!!" mentality about this crap. GOP whined in 2012. Dems whined in 2010. GOP rubbed it in our faces in 2004!!!!11 Dems rubbed it in our faces in 2008!!!111 Who cares what happened in the past!! /Says the Si-er.

    If the future is going to change then it starts in the present. Otherwise let's all just sit in the hamster wheel of delusional visions, with the cheese of togetherness forever out of reach and bitch about this fact while doing absolutely nothing of value towards it.

    Edit: this is all mainly said because my team lost and I am trying to be magnanimous about it all. If the tables were reversed I would probably be dancing upon it's cool glazed top. Actually I have no idea what I would be doing. No wait, I do. I would be riding a pony eating pudding. YES. I would be far too busy to rub one in for my opponents. Wait, is that how that phrase goes? No idea. Time to stop. COMETS!

    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    Many of my liberal friends would have cried if Romney had won, and many conservative friends would have rubbed it in their faces too. Not cool. It's unkind to laugh at people mourning, because their sorrow is real.

    At the same time, I kind of don't find the source of that sorrow to be "legitimate". The extreme emotional reaction people display upon hearing the outcome is somewhat telling of something kind of not... right with the culture. It is a weird kind of emotional fervor, beyond a thoughtful consideration of whom you think would do a better job. Personal identity becomes wrapped up in the outcome. Whether or not they supported their party's candidate in the primaries, come election time, somehow many people on both sides have come to see their candidate as a beacon of righteousness, and the opponent representing the source of everything that is wrong in the country. They are willing to overlook errors of judgement in their own candidate, and valid points that the other candidate makes. It's like an inability to deal with reality or something.

    The people who have actually done research, read about issues, formed a calm and reasoned opinion*, they aren't the ones I've seen despondent over the results, and they aren't the ones I've seen gloating either. In my opinion, the mature outcome for people whose candidate won is to feel glad, celebrate a bit, and then begin to reach out to the other side and begin to consider how we will rebuild the country and deal with the money issues. And the mature outcome for people whose candidate lost is to feel disappointed, and then begin to reach out to the other side and begin to consider how we will rebuild the country and deal with the money issues.



    *for the record I don't consider myself one of the people who is very politically knowledgeable - there's so much I don't know and understand about politics, just my observation of other people I know
    I love your post.

  2. #12
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    I think at this point unfortunately there is a chain of events stemming from the partisanship occurring during the Clinton years. It built over his term (remember the trashed health plan Hillary worked on in the first term?) culminating in the impeachment hearings, and there's even still bad blood / momentum left in effect from that -- Clinton did some things well as president, and he's still a hell of a speaker, but messing around with Lewinsky was a huge screw-up offensive to the more conservative Congress members and Clinton then also lied about things to a dreadful degree, and so the Republicans were totally out for his blood and bent on making him pay, the proverbial pitbull that latches onto your leg and won't let go... but Clinton was the idiot who stuck his foot in their mouths.

    This led into the horrible election of 2000 where it was clear the country was completely divided, Bush took the presidency because of a decision by the courts on how to handle Florida, and was only 500 votes ahead anyway. A portion of the country did not consider him a legitimate president, and the other portion resented their resentment... although I think if the opposite outcome had occurred, the exact same situation would have happened in reverse. People just were bitter and angry about how close the race was and how it was decided, and about how neither candidate seemed very strong.

    And then we ended up in a war many people did not want to be in, and a projected surplus / balanced budget being COMPLETELY trashed by the war effort. And yet somehow Bush was still reelected. That was the year I saw the gloating over victory occur, and the histrionics involved in losing occur. This year is just a flip mirror of that year and is happening in part because of what happened in 2004, IMO.

    I think a lot of gloating that is occurring is that desire for "payback" from the spurning from Bush's victory years ago, as well as what is perceived as a lot of shrill shouting from Fox News and conservative media. I have to admit, I feel ticked to some degree at all the obfuscation of actual polls and the numbers spin performed by much of the right-wing bloggerdom during the election. I get annoyed with stupidity on either side, where people strongly fudge data in order to justify their own reality and then use it to impact other people's lives; I'm happy to some degree to see such falsehood be wiped away and reality reaffirmed, regardless of party affiliation. That's "natural" justice and it feels good, but prolonged gloating over it seems rather pointless. It just is what it is, and let's move on.

    I'm sure if I'd been around in situations a few decades past where the Dems were in control and doing all the spin, I'd feel similarly.

    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    Many of my liberal friends would have cried if Romney had won, and many conservative friends would have rubbed it in their faces too. Not cool. It's unkind to laugh at people mourning, because their sorrow is real.
    Yeah. I have not said much about it overall on social media, and I have conservative friends who I am sensitive to. I didn't actually post much political stuff on FaceBook either during the actual election season.

    I think my issue is what you describe next:

    At the same time, I kind of don't find the source of that sorrow to be "legitimate". The extreme emotional reaction people display upon hearing the outcome is somewhat telling of something kind of not... right with the culture. It is a weird kind of emotional fervor, beyond a thoughtful consideration of whom you think would do a better job. Personal identity becomes wrapped up in the outcome.
    That's what bothers me, and that's the kind of thing I sometimes will make fun of. I don't know what other response can be made to the stupidity of crying that "America is destroyed" or talking about fleeing to another country depending on which president is elected. I'm not even describing one party here. I heard comments like this after Obama won this term; I heard similar comments when Bush won in 2004. It all just seems like histrionics to me. Yes, you lost. Yes, you are horribly disappointed. Yes, you need to get over it and move forward. It doesn't seem much different than young kids who don't win the game they plan and since their identity is wrapped up in their victory, they freak out, send the game board spinning into the walls, and run crying from the room.

    Whether or not they supported their party's candidate in the primaries, come election time, somehow many people on both sides have come to see their candidate as a beacon of righteousness, and the opponent representing the source of everything that is wrong in the country. They are willing to overlook errors of judgement in their own candidate, and valid points that the other candidate makes. It's like an inability to deal with reality or something.
    Yes. I voted for a particular candidate, but I don't see him as God. He's flawed like everyone else. And despite being a registered Dem, I was disturbed by the degree of Obama hype in 2008. It was far too much, it was like people believed he could walk on water and feed the masses with five loaves of bread. I suspected there would be a horrible crash when he didn't end up quickly being the messiah and fixing the country's problems in year one, and I was correct.

    The people who have actually done research, read about issues, formed a calm and reasoned opinion*, they aren't the ones I've seen despondent over the results, and they aren't the ones I've seen gloating either. In my opinion, the mature outcome for people whose candidate won is to feel glad, celebrate a bit, and then begin to reach out to the other side and begin to consider how we will rebuild the country and deal with the money issues. And the mature outcome for people whose candidate lost is to feel disappointed, and then begin to reach out to the other side and begin to consider how we will rebuild the country and deal with the money issues.
    I agree with that.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  3. #13
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    You know what? I have the exact opposite take on this.

    This kind of stuff is what I would expect to happen amongst people involved in democracy. For everyone ruling their eyes at the reaction to the election, I hope you are aren't a sports a fanatic, because the people who cheer and brood over sports are reacting to an event that signifies absolutely nothing. The election actually relates to something relevant, in fact quite important. We're talking about the implementation of policies that effect the state of the whole nation, as well as a reflection of the overriding political sentiments of the country. Is that not important?

    I was thinking about this a couple weeks ago. The people that make me concerned are the ones that say "I don't even pay attention to politics, it's all a bunch of bullshit". The quantity of those people we have in the country is one of your best measures for how fucked we are. Those people point to a poor system if they are so disenfranchised, and by not exercising their rights in a representative democracy they leave it to rot, and the more that system rots, the more of our population will be disenfranchised. It's a vicious cycle that works directly against the health of the country.

    So please do give me all those ravers and ranters, every partisan jumping for joy or gnashing their teeth, because they actually give me more hope for the country than those who have resigned to non-involvement.
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  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    You know what? I have the exact opposite take on this.

    This kind of stuff is what I would expect to happen amongst people involved in democracy. For everyone ruling their eyes at the reaction to the election, I hope you are aren't a sports a fanatic, because the people who cheer and brood over sports are reacting to an event that signifies absolutely nothing. The election actually relates to something relevant, in fact quite important. We're talking about the implementation of policies that effect the state of the whole nation, as well as a reflection of the overriding political sentiments of the country. Is that not important?

    I was thinking about this a couple weeks ago. The people that make me concerned are the ones that say "I don't even pay attention to politics, it's all a bunch of bullshit". The quantity of those people we have in the country is one of your best measures for how fucked we are. Those people point to a poor system if they are so disenfranchised, and by not exercising their rights in a representative democracy they leave it to rot, and the more that system rots, the more of our population will be disenfranchised. It's a vicious cycle that works directly against the health of the country.

    So please do give me all those ravers and ranters, every partisan jumping for joy or gnashing their teeth, because they actually give me more hope for the country than those who have resigned to non-involvement.


  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    You know what? I have the exact opposite take on this.

    This kind of stuff is what I would expect to happen amongst people involved in democracy. For everyone ruling their eyes at the reaction to the election, I hope you are aren't a sports a fanatic, because the people who cheer and brood over sports are reacting to an event that signifies absolutely nothing. The election actually relates to something relevant, in fact quite important. We're talking about the implementation of policies that effect the state of the whole nation, as well as a reflection of the overriding political sentiments of the country. Is that not important?

    I was thinking about this a couple weeks ago. The people that make me concerned are the ones that say "I don't even pay attention to politics, it's all a bunch of bullshit". The quantity of those people we have in the country is one of your best measures for how fucked we are. Those people point to a poor system if they are so disenfranchised, and by not exercising their rights in a representative democracy they leave it to rot, and the more that system rots, the more of our population will be disenfranchised. It's a vicious cycle that works directly against the health of the country.

    So please do give me all those ravers and ranters, every partisan jumping for joy or gnashing their teeth, because they actually give me more hope for the country than those who have resigned to non-involvement.
    I agree with you that it's better that people are at least involved than totally indifferent, and that this outpouring of feeeeling is a result of idealistic people having the opportunity to vote.

    However, I don't find the sports team comparison to be valid. Sports loyalty in a way is supposed to be irrational. The derision and joy and disappointment and all the emotions... it's not based in anything besides pure loyalty. You don't root for your team because you have looked at all the teams in the league and come to a conclusion on which team is best. You root because it's your home, your friends, your family. Blind loyalty. Totally appropriate for sports, even admirable. In my opinion, misapplied in a democracy (or democratic republic or whatever we have).

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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    However, I don't find the sports team comparison to be valid. Sports loyalty in a way is supposed to be irrational. The derision and joy and disappointment and all the emotions... it's not based in anything besides pure loyalty. You don't root for your team because you have looked at all the teams in the league and come to a conclusion on which team is best. You root because it's your home, your friends, your family. Blind loyalty. Totally appropriate for sports, even admirable. In my opinion, misapplied in a democracy (or democratic republic or whatever we have).
    Sadly, that's exactly how some people approach politics in our country. It's a home team / family / friends / blind loyalty, with all the logic stemming from the loyalty rather than a lengthy cognitive process resulting in a decision.

    As far as social media goes, when did FaceBook really kick in? Not until the 2008 election, I think. Before then, it was MySpace, which was pretty unwieldy and cobbled together. And Twitter only really took off in the last few years, I think.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #17
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    I agree with you that it's better that people are at least involved than totally indifferent, and that this outpouring of feeeeling is a result of idealistic people having the opportunity to vote.

    However, I don't find the sports team comparison to be valid. Sports loyalty in a way is supposed to be irrational. The derision and joy and disappointment and all the emotions... it's not based in anything besides pure loyalty. You don't root for your team because you have looked at all the teams in the league and come to a conclusion on which team is best. You root because it's your home, your friends, your family. Blind loyalty. Totally appropriate for sports, even admirable. In my opinion, misapplied in a democracy (or democratic republic or whatever we have).
    I find the the distinction totally arbitrary, have a difficult time digesting anything that is intended to be totally irrational, and must say I find sports fanaticism inappropriate and un-admirable in all circumstances.
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  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    I agree with you that it's better that people are at least involved than totally indifferent, and that this outpouring of feeeeling is a result of idealistic people having the opportunity to vote.

    However, I don't find the sports team comparison to be valid. Sports loyalty in a way is supposed to be irrational. The derision and joy and disappointment and all the emotions... it's not based in anything besides pure loyalty. You don't root for your team because you have looked at all the teams in the league and come to a conclusion on which team is best. You root because it's your home, your friends, your family. Blind loyalty. Totally appropriate for sports, even admirable. In my opinion, misapplied in a democracy (or democratic republic or whatever we have).
    It can be about more than loyalty.

    I went to the University of Florida, as did my father and his.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I find the the distinction totally arbitrary, have a difficult time digesting anything that is intended to be totally irrational, and must say I find sports fanaticism inappropriate and un-admirable in all circumstances.
    A view that would be echoed by an unimaginably small portion of the populace.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I find the the distinction totally arbitrary, have a difficult time digesting anything that is intended to be totally irrational, and must say I find sports fanaticism inappropriate and un-admirable in all circumstances.
    I'm in Ravens territory at work, and it drives me nuts. People constantly wearing jerseys, waving sports paraphernalia, discussing the games, running raffles, waiting in lines to see sports heroes, dissing the Steelers and Eagles. I mean, it's kind of humorous on some level, but it also can get old. And it's not just men, it seems close to 50/50 here in terms of gender who happens to be a rabid fan.

    I never really understood it. I mean, I feel a little nostalgia for the Steelers because they were popular where I grew up, so it's familiar to me; but not to the degree of caring much whether they win, who is on the team, how their season went, etc.

    And let's not talk about ticket pricing.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    Many of my liberal friends would have cried if Romney had won, and many conservative friends would have rubbed it in their faces too. Not cool. It's unkind to laugh at people mourning, because their sorrow is real.

    At the same time, I kind of don't find the source of that sorrow to be "legitimate". The extreme emotional reaction people display upon hearing the outcome is somewhat telling of something kind of not... right with the culture. It is a weird kind of emotional fervor, beyond a thoughtful consideration of whom you think would do a better job. Personal identity becomes wrapped up in the outcome. Whether or not they supported their party's candidate in the primaries, come election time, somehow many people on both sides have come to see their candidate as a beacon of righteousness, and the opponent representing the source of everything that is wrong in the country. They are willing to overlook errors of judgement in their own candidate, and valid points that the other candidate makes. It's like an inability to deal with reality or something.

    The people who have actually done research, read about issues, formed a calm and reasoned opinion*, they aren't the ones I've seen despondent over the results, and they aren't the ones I've seen gloating either. In my opinion, the mature outcome for people whose candidate won is to feel glad, celebrate a bit, and then begin to reach out to the other side and begin to consider how we will rebuild the country and deal with the money issues. And the mature outcome for people whose candidate lost is to feel disappointed, and then begin to reach out to the other side and begin to consider how we will rebuild the country and deal with the money issues.

    *for the record I don't consider myself one of the people who is very politically knowledgeable - there's so much I don't know and understand about politics, just my observation of other people I know
    Excellent post. Couldn't agree more.

    I spent election night at a party for an Independent candidate running for US Congress, and, even before I got there, as soon as I heard that New Hampshire went to Obama, which was very early on, I knew it was over. If New Hampshire went to Obama, then Romney's needed 2-3% swing in his favor (caused by some combination of inaccurate polling turnout assumptions, undecideds swinging in favor of Romney, et al) was seemingly not happening; when I stopped by a city council meeting with my friend beforehand, and heard that Obama was (barely) ahead in Florida, that put the last nail in the coffin. So I showed up to the party already having figured Obama'd won it, and just hoping that this Independent candidate I'd supported/volunteered for would win, so the night wouldn't be a total loss. And, as I mentioned on here before, I'd already grown sick of the election several days before it happened, and was just over it, wanted it to be done with, and had my rationalization for either candidate winning prefabricated and ready to be deployed (whereas some people like to think of me as partisan and close-minded on here, even the arguments I make, and most genuinely believe, for a particular side, I question -- are they really true? how strong is the evidence, really? are there any specific circumstances to this time in history that make these arguments less correct for this specific moment? -- and can see potential internal contradictions, and I can (if they exist) generally see the potential merits of the other side's argument.

    So I found it just really oddly at contrast with my reaction when I told an intern for the campaign who I'd been volunteering with some hours later that it was over and Obama had won: she visibly started trying to hold back tears, and then clearly had no shot at doing so, and got up and left the area to go be by herself/go to the ladies' room.

    I mean, I have had my thoughts about the potential disaster of a second Obama term, particularly because of the road I fear it might lead us down, but, I mean, once the reality of him winning it was there, it was pretty easy for me to let go of that, accept things as they are, hope for the best, and that my fearful visions aren't where we're heading, and to get on with life. Perhaps it's an Ni dom thing.

    Anyway, my point, and I especially felt this later, as I watched the crowds at Obama's acceptance speech, is that, far too much, our elections resemble two camps of warring barely-better-than-monkeys, with each side just hooting and hollering for their particular monkey leader. There's really very little reason involved. It's just a bunch of emotional bullshit, and tribal warfare/ass-patting.

    So, in response, to the people on my facebook -- the same ones who have been writing obnoxious political messages for the last several months (and, I should add, apparently I have no conservative friends, cuz I struggle to remember a single Republican-leaning message the entire time) -- who are continuing on with their retarded hyperpartisan posting, clearly completely blind to the contradictions in their behavior, the blatant double standards, how big of fucking partisan hacks they actually are, I've just been responding with completely unemotional, non-flaming, reasoned posts, that reveal them for exactly what they are, but without getting nasty. It's fun to see them writhe under the glare of unvarnished reason, like so many worms shriveling in the sun.

    I suspect their idiotic gloating and blatant double standards will slow.

    That, or they'll just defriend me.

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