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  1. #691
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Conjecture? So now advocating for safety over profits is rooted in "conjecture" that an accident could happen? Did you learn nothing from what happened with BP?

    Can you show me where I said that pipeline won't be approved? I remember calling Obama a corporate whore, but I don't remember saying anything about the pipeline not being approved. You're arguing against a straw man, as usual.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #692
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    I know you didn't say it wouldn't be approved.

    I was just rubbing the fact it ultimately will in your self righteous face.

    Pipelines are much safer than rail or truck.

    If the option is between the pipeline going through the US or the fuel being shipped to a port in Canada, I will choose pipeline every time.

    The fuel will be extracted and shipped to hungry markets regardless of the sky is falling protestations.

    I'm going to make something real clear, we will probably extract every drop of fossil fuel from the Earth that we can until it is more economically viable to do something else.

    Unfortunately with regards to the something else option, we've had a bit of time to improve efficiencies in fossil fuel extraction and are continuing to do so. Thus the other options are chasing a moving target with regards to market competitive pricing.

    The only thing that has the capability to generate base load grid power at a market competitive price is Nuclear. But until the greens get their panties out of a bunch on nuclear power, development will not be what it could be.

    Renewables will probably only serve a supporting role in generating power until we either make peace with nuclear or figure out fusion.

    This is the real world in which I live. A world where the ocean level in front of my families beach condo is at the same level now that it was when I was a child.

    So absent the end of the world actually occurring, environmental standards will continue to try and improve efficiency as opposed to phasing out fossil's all together.

    Battery technology is holding back electric cars, and it seems like that is a problem that will take some time to figure out.

    The US economy will be stronger with the pipeline than without it.

  3. #693
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Obama may or may not care about the environment, I really couldn't care less about what he believes. He's a corporate whore.

    I think most people don't know how many pipeline leaks there are every year. According to PHMSA, there were 603 pipeline "incidents" in 2011. Those resulted in 17 deaths, 70 injuries, and $326 million in property damage. That is a typical year. I don't know if that includes environmental damage to public and private land or if that figure is just what people have claimed through insurance companies. I'm leaning toward to latter, meaning the actual damage is much greater.

    The idea of a pipeline is fine in a purely theoretical sense. But the reality is that pipelines leak all the time and this Keystone pipeline would be thousands of miles long. I would be in favor of the pipeline if proper safety precautions were taken, but what would be proper, in my opinion, might end up making the pipeline more expensive than using the railroad for transport. If it is ever actually built, we know that there will be neglect. It's in the company's financial interest to neglect because the cost of neglect is less than the cost of proper maintenance. In the end, the government will have a hand in cleaning up messes and making sure the company doesn't go out of business compensating those who were harmed. Privatized profits, socialized losses. Fascism.
    Dude. We have over 2 million miles of pipeline. The keystone xl project is just over a thousand miles which means at the most we're talking about an increase of the above problems by about .05% if everything held steady. That's a cost of around $160,000 and pretty much insignificant deaths and injuries.

    Meanwhile the state department has determined that sticking with the rails will lead to 6 deaths a year on average.

  4. #694
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Dude. We have over 2 million miles of pipeline. The keystone xl project is just over a thousand miles which means at the most we're talking about an increase of the above problems by about .05% if everything held steady. That's a cost of around $160,000 and pretty much insignificant deaths and injuries.

    Meanwhile the state department has determined that sticking with the rails will lead to 6 deaths a year on average.
    There is more than 2 million miles of pipeline in the US, but most of that is distributing natural gas to people's homes. There is only about 55,000 miles of crude oil pipeline in the US. Once it's finished, the Keystone pipeline cover more than 3,000 miles. Something else of note, the Keystone pipeline is all 30-36 inches in diameter. The Trans-Alaskan pipeline is larger, but most crude oil pipeline is actually significantly smaller. My point is, this isn't just a .05% increase in this nation's pipeline capacity. The actual increase in volume of material flowing through pipelines will be significantly higher than 0.05%.

    As for that cost, I think that is grossly underestimated, just like BP's costs were far less than the actual damage caused by the oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico. That's the thing about these ecological disasters, the companies that cause them never pay the full price. So much for personal responsibility.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #695
    Sweet Ocean Cloud SD45T-2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Forgive me if I rely on the state department report instead of conjecture.

    The pipeline will be approved, I would put money on it.
    You may have read this already:

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Krauthammer
    Last week, speaking to the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, Canada’s foreign minister calmly but pointedly complained that the United States owes Canada a response on the Keystone XL pipeline. “We can’t continue in this state of limbo,” he sort of complained, in what for a placid, imperturbable Canadian passes for an explosion of volcanic rage.

    Canadians may be preternaturally measured and polite, but they simply can’t believe how they’ve been treated by President Obama — left hanging humiliatingly on an issue whose merits were settled years ago.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinio...aaf_story.html
    1w2-6w5-3w2 so/sp

    "I took one those personality tests. It came back negative." - Dan Mintz

  6. #696
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    Quote Originally Posted by SD45T-2 View Post
    Krauthammer is one of the good ones.

    And yea I saw it. Energy policy is one of my favorites.

  7. #697
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    I know you didn't say it wouldn't be approved.

    I was just rubbing the fact it ultimately will in your self righteous face.
    The projection going on here is astounding.

    Pipelines are much safer than rail or truck.
    Based upon what I believe to be flawed analysis. Environmental damage is always underestimated because it's difficult to quantify.

    If the option is between the pipeline going through the US or the fuel being shipped to a port in Canada, I will choose pipeline every time.

    The fuel will be extracted and shipped to hungry markets regardless of the sky is falling protestations.

    I'm going to make something real clear, we will probably extract every drop of fossil fuel from the Earth that we can until it is more economically viable to do something else.

    Unfortunately with regards to the something else option, we've had a bit of time to improve efficiencies in fossil fuel extraction and are continuing to do so. Thus the other options are chasing a moving target with regards to market competitive pricing.
    Of course we're going to extract fossil fuels until something better comes along. There's no "probably" in that. That's a certainty.

    Solar will be able to produce electricity more cheaply than coal per kWh by 2020. It'll pass natural gas by 2025 or 2030, depending on how cheap natural gas actually gets. Once solar becomes the cheaper option, and it is inevitable that it will (Moore's law applies to PV cells just like it applies to computer CPUs), there will be a paradigm shift. We're going to figure out better ways to store electricity because it will be economically viable.

    The only thing that has the capability to generate base load grid power at a market competitive price is Nuclear. But until the greens get their panties out of a bunch on nuclear power, development will not be what it could be.

    Renewables will probably only serve a supporting role in generating power until we either make peace with nuclear or figure out fusion.
    I don't think we'll ever make peace with nuclear, and that's a shame. Thorium reactor designs are far superior to the uranium-based designs so many people fear. And we've got enough thorium fuel to last thousands of years.

    This is the real world in which I live. A world where the ocean level in front of my families beach condo is at the same level now that it was when I was a child.
    Okay. Should I repeat that I've said nothing about global warming? No? I think I should because you keep going back to that as though that's somehow part of my argument.

    So absent the end of the world actually occurring, environmental standards will continue to try and improve efficiency as opposed to phasing out fossil's all together.

    Battery technology is holding back electric cars, and it seems like that is a problem that will take some time to figure out.

    The US economy will be stronger with the pipeline than without it.
    Will the US economy really be stronger with the pipeline than without it? I'm skeptical. It's not like they're going to hand out free crude oil to Americans. That oil is going to go to market, just like all the other oil in the world. I'm sure a bunch of it will end up in China. I think the pipeline will have a negligible impact on the economy. The importance of this pipeline is greatly exaggerated, by both proponents and opponents. It's really not that big of a deal, either way. My biggest problem with the thing is that I know we're going to end up bailing TransCanada out at some point and I HATE crony capitalism (it's the biggest problem this country faces).
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #698
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    Don't you work with solar power or in electrics or some such?

    You're not personally invested in this at all are you?

    And the state dept. has some really smart folks working there.

    Who else is as confident as you are in the rate of development of solar technology?

    If so I'd really like to hear what they think.

  9. #699
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    The best part is that I stole this thread from you.

  10. #700
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    There is more than 2 million miles of pipeline in the US, but most of that is distributing natural gas to people's homes. There is only about 55,000 miles of crude oil pipeline in the US. Once it's finished, the Keystone pipeline cover more than 3,000 miles. Something else of note, the Keystone pipeline is all 30-36 inches in diameter. The Trans-Alaskan pipeline is larger, but most crude oil pipeline is actually significantly smaller. My point is, this isn't just a .05% increase in this nation's pipeline capacity. The actual increase in volume of material flowing through pipelines will be significantly higher than 0.05%.

    As for that cost, I think that is grossly underestimated, just like BP's costs were far less than the actual damage caused by the oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico. That's the thing about these ecological disasters, the companies that cause them never pay the full price. So much for personal responsibility.
    The deaths are probably evenly distributed across all pipelines. I'll grant that there probably is a higher ecological risk with keystone than your average pipeline, but comparing it to the gulf oil spill is silly as there's a significant difference in the amount of control one has over a pipeline as compared to a well.

    At the end of the day the fact remains that the state department determined that the pipeline posed less of a risk of spilling than the rail roads and it is much more safer for workers.

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