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  1. #541
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    The idea of cuts is well and good (seriously), but holding to the idea without any concern for implementation is immature.
    The Republicans can't negotiate implementation with an administration that doesn't believe we have a spending problem in the first place-the Clinton wing of the Democratic party is dead.

  2. #542
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    The Republicans can't negotiate implementation with an administration that doesn't believe we have a spending problem in the first place-the Clinton wing of the Democratic party is dead.
    It was Obama and Boehner who both wanted to implement a "grand bargain" once. I think they're both professionals, but are getting a lot of pressure from their partisan base. Boehner more than Obama (it was Ryan and Cantor who threw a fit at Boehner when they found out he was going behind their backs and making this deal with the White House. Everything went to shit afterwards, and they mobilized the tea party wing. Politics hasn't been the same since).

  3. #543
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    It was Obama and Boehner who both wanted to implement a "grand bargain" once. I think they're both professionals, but are getting a lot of pressure from their partisan base. Boehner more than Obama (it was Ryan and Cantor who threw a fit at Boehner when they found out he was going behind their backs and making this deal with the White House. Everything went to shit afterwards, and they mobilized the tea party wing. Politics hasn't been the same since).
    Everything went to shit after Obama moved the goal posts from 800 billion in revenue to 1.2 trillion.

    We had a deal at 800.

  4. #544
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Everything went to shit after Obama moved the goal posts from 800 billion in revenue to 1.2 trillion.

    We had a deal at 800.
    Right in the middle of these deals, Senate Republicans stood up in a memo in favor of another plan that raised revenue even higher than what the President and Boehner were discussing on their own. This motivated Obama to "move the goal posts". It's no different if you were in a marketplace and about to buy some pears for $5 and then the guy across the isle offers the same for $3. It's hard to blame the President for that imo (otoh, I understand Boehner getting pissed, thinking Obama broke his word. This is Washington though. Not an episode of Friends).

    But by the time Cantor got wind of it, he wasn't for the $800 billion either. Boehner reached the Speaker position without ever being a Whip - he miscalculated how difficult it'd be to get his own Congress on board from the getgo. Opposition to any taxes was greater than he thought. This is why Boehner never left that offer on the table anyways. He wasn't going to get even that smaller deal past his own party. It didn't matter if Obama retreated back to $800b or not. Then they decided to stall until the 2012 election, thinking it'd be better to just take Obama out of the fight completely. Ryan and Romney I think had some "master plan" to go on a "charm offensive" with house and senate democrats once they got in office. Didn't work out too well. And apparently, they were so confident that everything would magically play out this way to not even have a Plan B.

  5. #545
    Senior Member captain curmudgeon's Avatar
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    The future of the Republican party:

    1. Focus progressively more on fiscal conservatism and less on socially conservative viewpoints

    2. Less old white guys.

    3. Less talk about rape.
    Jarlaxle: fact checking this thread makes me want to go all INFP on my wrists

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  6. #546
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Right in the middle of these deals, Senate Republicans stood up in a memo in favor of another plan that raised revenue even higher than what the President and Boehner were discussing on their own. This motivated Obama to "move the goal posts". It's no different if you were in a marketplace and about to buy some pears for $5 and then the guy across the isle offers the same for $3. It's hard to blame the President for that imo (otoh, I understand Boehner getting pissed, thinking Obama broke his word. This is Washington though. Not an episode of Friends).

    But by the time Cantor got wind of it, he wasn't for the $800 billion either. Boehner reached the Speaker position without ever being a Whip - he miscalculated how difficult it'd be to get his own Congress on board from the getgo. Opposition to any taxes was greater than he thought. This is why Boehner never left that offer on the table anyways. He wasn't going to get even that smaller deal past his own party. It didn't matter if Obama retreated back to $800b or not. Then they decided to stall until the 2012 election, thinking it'd be better to just take Obama out of the fight completely. Ryan and Romney I think had some "master plan" to go on a "charm offensive" with house and senate democrats once they got in office. Didn't work out too well. And apparently, they were so confident that everything would magically play out this way to not even have a Plan B.
    How many Republican Senators backed that plan?

    I bet it was not enough to break a Republican filibuster (5 R votes plus 55 D votes).

    Boehner didn't need every Republican vote, just enough to pass the bill with Dem backing

    He could have gotten a critical mass of Republican house votes on a deal with 800bn in new revenues.

    Obama was feeling massive pressure to raise more revenues from his base. He used the tiny amount of Republican support for more revenues as cover to cave to that base pressure.

  7. #547
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    How many Republican Senators backed that plan?

    I bet it was not enough to break a Republican filibuster (5 R votes plus 55 D votes).

    Boehner didn't need every Republican vote, just enough to pass the bill with Dem backing

    He could have gotten a critical mass of Republican house votes on a deal with 800bn in new revenues.

    Obama was feeling massive pressure to raise more revenues from his base. He used the tiny amount of Republican support for more revenues as cover to cave to that base pressure.
    I read there were 20 Senate repubs who voiced support, but there was never a formal backing (it was the "Gang of Six" plan).

    As for the House, remember this was already after the ACA. 2010 brought in the tea party hardline on taxes. Cantor took the same hardline (I guess it's too much trouble to change any of them) with Boehner. And yes, Obama faces pressure, but he can get them to swallow his agenda more than anyone on the Republican side can theirs.

  8. #548
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    Like I said, we had a deal at 800bn.

    Blowing up a settled deal because of the back room dealings of the Gang of Six (whose plan no one ever gave any real chance of passing) is dumb no matter what angle looks at it from.

    And we just raised it 600bn.

  9. #549
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    It was Obama and Boehner who both wanted to implement a "grand bargain" once. I think they're both professionals, but are getting a lot of pressure from their partisan base. Boehner more than Obama (it was Ryan and Cantor who threw a fit at Boehner when they found out he was going behind their backs and making this deal with the White House. Everything went to shit afterwards, and they mobilized the tea party wing. Politics hasn't been the same since).
    Disco's already addressing the most important part, but two points:

    Obama himself said that we don't have a spending problem.

    The tea party wing that you seem to blame everything on was mobilized by the actions of the Democratic supermajority, especially the passage of Obamacare. That was the point in which politics hasn't been the same, and I wouldn't bank on things improving anytime soon.

  10. #550
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    The tea party wing that you seem to blame everything on
    I don't "seem". I do.

    Obama's spending record is relatively modest. This right wing contingent that cries about spending is coming from people who are supported by the likes of the Birchers, Von Mises, Kochs, and Cato institute. These are groups that Republicans once distanced themselves from. They cry foul at the idea of almost any spending, including perennially popular entitlements like the GI Bill, Medicare, and SS. Anything shy of "getting us back to pre New Deal America" is "too much spending". They're even happy about the Sequester. Apparently any cuts, no matter how inefficient, are good. "This will be the first significant Tea Party victory in that we got what we set out to do in changing Washington.” (Rep. Tim Huelskamp of Kansas). So yeah, I blame them. These same guys think we're all going to become "Greece" soon and should stock up on gold. I think Geithner put it best.. “an adolescent perspective on how to think about economic policy.”

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