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  1. #531
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    One other thing that isn't mentioned much is the element of Cuban Americans shaping the right wing. Not just Cruz and Rubio, but Cardenas (who's heading CPAC). These guys take extreme views because they or their families had to encounter the extreme left. Their politics are shaped by trauma. In my opinion, trauma, while useful for revolt, is a shitty platform for the longterm. They need more rational Republicans. Not emotional ones. Or the ideologically "pure".

    It's the same shit with Ayn Rand. Her family fled the Soviets. That warped her mind enough to advocate extreme self-interest.

  2. #532
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    All the polls show Republicans taking the majority of the blame for anything that happens, and it shows them at a popularity disadvantage to the Democrats and particularly the president, and reasons cited for their unpopularity have to do with being ideological and uncompromising. This is not a good time to be doing what the Republicans are doing.
    At the most basic level, we've been arguing for (and campaigned on) cuts for a couple of years now.

    With the sequester, we have to opportunity to make cuts happen now (not at some delayable point in the future).

    If the cuts go through without a huge hit to the economy, or any market freakouts we will have taken the most manifest step toward refuting the big government narrative so laboriously created by the administration and dems generally.

    The sequester is the first blow against the unassailability of government spending.

    We may not have a fully articulated arguement for modern conservatism that's salient with the current electorate, but the sequester is the first test of conservative goals before the American people.

    Our first victory doesn't have to win the war. We just need to erase the myth that spending could never come down, and the people could never stomach cuts.

    If we can get these cuts (to defense no less) through, we'll begin to realize we don't have to be so afraid of doing anything.

    The polls you sight overlook some fairly important points. I can't remember the article that contained the refutation of the pretty broad claims from those polls, but it was solid.

    You've been lambasting us a campaign events and corrupting any possible chance of a deal. I think the administration has done itself no favors pissing off all the folks they need to get anything passed in the next four years.

    The post election honeymoon phase is ending, and people are tiring of the regal condescension coming from the white house.

    Given the breaks in the ranks, Woodward being a good example, the anger of reporters over lack of access being another, the hold you guys have on the narrative seems to be slipping.

    The claim that government cuts will cause unacceptable harm to the country, is going to be tested.

    Let's hope you guys have a back up plan to explain why your proclamations amounted apocalyptic hype.

  3. #533
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    We may not have a fully articulated arguement for modern conservatism that's salient with the current electorate, but the sequester is the first test of conservative goals before the American people.

    Our first victory doesn't have to win the war. We just need to erase the myth that spending could never come down, and the people could never stomach cuts.

    If we can get these cuts (to defense no less) through, we'll begin to realize we don't have to be so afraid of doing anything.
    It isn't a good way to prove a point. The idea of cuts is well and good (seriously), but holding to the idea without any concern for implementation is immature. This is ideology over actual problem solving. There's that old saying, if you're going to do something, do it right. Not only for it's own sake, but if you wanted to win people over to the philosophy, you present a good case example. Doing it just for the sake of it is just preaching to the choir. Few outsiders will see wisdom in random sloppiness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    It isn't a good way to prove a point. The idea of cuts is well and good (seriously), but holding to the idea without any concern for implementation is immature. This is ideology over actual problem solving. There's that old saying, if you're going to do something, do it right. Not only for it's own sake, but if you wanted to win people over to the philosophy, you present a good case example. Doing it just for the sake of it is just preaching to the choir. Few outsiders will see wisdom in random sloppiness.
    Time will tell us who was right.

    Mountain out of a mole hill.

    We are still spending more than we did last year.

    Some cuts, are better than no cuts.

    EDIT - there was no quid pro quo for the taxes increase we gave them. Forcing the sequester is the consequence of that.

  5. #535
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Time will tell us who was right.

    Mountain out of a mole hill.

    We are still spending more than we did last year.

    Some cuts, are better than no cuts.

    EDIT - there was no quid pro quo for the taxes increase we gave them. Forcing the sequester is the consequence of that.
    Bear with me, but maybe because you're Ni valuing, you want to emphasize "time" and the development of things.

    I think this is more a conflict of poor judgement though, not a conflict of what we can't see. To carry the typology reference further, let the sequester happen is based on "Fi reasoning". "Hey, at least we kept it real. We stuck true to ourselves. Yay!" Lots of TJs depending on their weak side. Holding to beliefs at all costs. Next time they should use more Te. It's what they're good at.

  6. #536
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    I think our respective understandings of the sequester are so different as to keep us from coming to any sort of agreement on this.

    And from what I've read regarding the politics of the situation generally, this was the best place to stand our ground.

    It allows us to cut spending and not raise taxes, allowing us to say we've done something about cuts to our base without caving to Obama again. We were in bad shape with the electorate if we couldn't point to some victory on something.

    These cuts will end up being a drop in the bucket. And I expect they will give both sides cover to come to the table more readily in the future.

    The only way this whole situation isn't a win for us is if it blows up in our face, which it's looking like it wont.

    It will also give us momentum moving into the Continuing Resolution fight at the end of the month. That is the fight where we will need to come to the table and hopefully set the stage for tax reform.

    Boehner gave the legislative title of H.R. 1 to tax reform indicating that that will be our big push this year.

  7. #537
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Fair enough.

    At least we got some funny lines about executive power.

    "I'm not a dictator," Obama said. "I'm the president. So ultimately if Mitch McConnell or John Boehner say 'I need to go to catch a plane,' I can't have Secret Service block the doorway, right?" .."Even though most people agree that I'm being reasonable, that most people agree that I am presenting a fair deal -- the fact that [Republicans] don't take it means that I should somehow do a Jedi mind meld with these folks and convince them to do what's right," he said.

    Maybe Congress "standing ground" might help the conservative base to stop thinking Obama is Hitler/Stalin/Bin Laden/Antichrist. That's the only useful thing I see from this.

  8. #538
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Fair enough.

    At least we got some funny lines about executive power.

    "I'm not a dictator," Obama said. "I'm the president. So ultimately if Mitch McConnell or John Boehner say 'I need to go to catch a plane,' I can't have Secret Service block the doorway, right?" .."Even though most people agree that I'm being reasonable, that most people agree that I am presenting a fair deal -- the fact that [Republicans] don't take it means that I should somehow do a Jedi mind meld with these folks and convince them to do what's right," he said.

    Maybe Congress "standing ground" might help the conservative base to stop thinking Obama is Hitler/Stalin/Bin Laden/Antichrist. That's the only useful thing I see from this.
    Well I think the whole thing got started by from the way the ACA was pushed through after the '08 election.

    We certainly aren't blameless in the whole thing, but it's not the one sided story some would have you think.

    Realizing that the administration wanted the legislative train to leave the station without Republicans on board (w/ regard to passing the ACA) kind of set the tone/stage for how negotiations between the parties would play out for the rest of Obama's 2 terms.

    Our conduct once they lost the house, was predicated on the exclusionary way the ACA was pushed through, and it seems like we were never really able to get to a point where both sides trusted the other to act in good faith after that.

    Obama had an opportunity to change the tone of the discussion with his inaugural address. He chose not to.

    I think the way he's still campaigning, and his attitude towards us since reelection will have consequences that he (in hindsight) will regret.

    Luckily the publics patience with the whole process seems to be at best strained.

    As to your last point. I don't think the public opinion of Obama among avg conservative voters will change much until he publicly and substantively compromises with us on tax and entitlement reform, without trying to assassinate our character. Basically a public show of humility.

    Without some concession, we will have no exit from the electoral strait jacket we're in.

    Turning off the vitriol spigot on both sides will be a delicate maneuver requiring some cool heads all around.

    I'm going to be interested to see how all this plays out.

    If things don't get better as far as deal making is concerned, it could sink Obama's legacy.

    If we don't substantially address our structural financial issues (healthcare being among them) prior to 2016, Obama will get blamed for the fallout.

    I'm hoping that in the next 3.75 years we can get the ball rolling, and the sequester actually going through without pushing the cuts off is a good sign that we can.

    The sequester makes sense in the fact that it demonstrates to our creditors that we are willing to actually do something about the deficit.

    The Republicans had to show they were willing to address revenues. We did.

    If we can get past this without the whole thing falling apart, or the government retroactively negating the cuts or pushing them beyond the horizon, we will have shown that we can cut spending.

    The sequester is important because it demonstrates to our creditors that we can handle cuts even if those cuts are poorly designed.

    The value of demonstrating to the world that we can take foul tasting medicine when we have to will outweigh the negative impact of the sequester on our short term economic outlook.

    But that's an opinion of mine and reasonable minds can disagree.

  9. #539
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    house of cards????? omg.
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


  10. #540
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    ^ pretty much.

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