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  1. #511
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    That sounds like bizarro world. I've always thought of the Republican party as the one that maintains solidarity while their members are being asses, and the Democratic party as the one that can't maintain solidarity even when things are fine. Regarding Menendez, that's a pretty recent story and I doubt he'll last. If he does, it will be a new turn of events.

    Noting your analysis of the situation, here's someone saying basically the opposite.

    Deluded Republican Reformers
    By the very nature of being conservative the GOP has always been a loose alliance of various groups with different ideological underpinnings... Socons, libertarians, and Rockefeller Republicans.

    I think it's funny that you're arguing with me about this as someone who also takes a low view of the republican establishment. Can't you see the establishment as being more concerned with political and financial success with little concerns for morality and socons being more intent on being ideologically pure? Thus the establishment immediately threw Akin and Mourdoch under the bus and dropped all their funding when they became a liability.

    The Dems are just pushing this so they only have to deal with one type of moral corruption in their own minds.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  2. #512
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    The Dems are just pushing this so they only have to deal with one type of moral corruption in their own minds.
    I'd rather people throw the Koch brothers under a bus, than Akin. Fat chance of that happening though.

  3. #513
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    He operates that way because he knows how to climb the ladder, and more specifically who to glad hand to do so.

    He's sided with the hawk wing because until the sequester that was the most powerful wing of the party.

    Having staked out his pro military position, I'd agree that he won't do anything about military spending, but that's OK because we have plenty of other folks in the party namely Paul who will.

    If it weren't for the way Rubio ingratiated himself to the party, he wouldn't be on the cover of Time. I think Rubio will be strongest on immigration clearly.

    He has the next several years to stake out where he stands on other issues. I would not be surprised if his hawkishness gets toned down as the winds continue to blow in the other direction.

    I'd bet that he will be strong on education as well, which has always been his mentor Jeb Bush's highest priority. That issue dove tails well with immigration and helping poverty and the middle class.

    I hope he strongly hops on the Liquid Natural Gas, and Nuclear energy trains.

    I would prefer that Rubio wasn't so hawkish because that's where my personal beliefs lie, but you have to play the game to win, and I won't begrudge his hawkishness because I think he shrewdly adopted it to move up in the party.

    Once he gets to a place where he can determine policy, not just agree with what the party line is, I bet his military stance becomes less stark.

    This will be a slow process as he's already having to tread carefully on the amnesty issue.

    But to his credit, he's changed the opinions of talk radio hosts on it.

    This is why I like him. He's got enough cred with the establishment to help them evolve their views on immigration which would have been unthinkable in 2006.

    Once immigration is behind him, he'll (hopefully) have the political capital to help the party evolve on other issues.
    We'll see if he peaked early.

    I just don't see any reason to expect anything different from him than the idiots he's sucking up to.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  4. #514
    Symbolic Herald Vasilisa's Avatar
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    *No more personal insults in this thread, no excuses*
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  5. #515
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    I'd rather people throw the Koch brothers under a bus, than Akin. Fat chance of that happening though.
    I'd be down with that. I think they're just using libertarians for their own ends.

    Edit: Still don't be surprised if I quote Cato for my own purposes.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  6. #516
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Actually if you want to look for people to hang out to dry don't look at Akin or Mourdock who each had one indiscretion and yet have worked long and hard for the party.

    Look at Rush, Hannity, and O'Reilly and company. If our problem is one of perception and the media has the most control over that we should look there for the blame. That means both the left and right leaning media. We can't do Much about left leaning media, but fox and company are making millions of dollars and giving the GOP a bad name.
    As long as they are pushing a profitable product, we wont be able to do anything about em.

    The silver lining here is that the donors, aka the people who pay them are pissed that we keep losing.

    Rush agreed with Marco on immigration. That's a huge step in the right direction.

    I agree that our echo chamber is a problem, but I think that they will only change in response to an establishment shift to the middle.

    They have too much freedom to be pushed by anything but their pocket books.

    While they do damage to us, I think we just need a stronger party to lead the way. Back before '08 they played more of a second fiddle to the establishment.

    Without the president, and a strong unified party, they filled the power vacuum.

    The main point is that the fix is going to have to happen with the party itself first and then trickle down to the conservative media.

    Everyone knows that media personalities have carte blanch to be as partisan as they like. Our candidates and Representatives have an obligation to the people that should supersede a desire to cater to the base.

    That's why I think our candidates and reps acting like idiots is more damning to us than talk radio doing the same thing.

    Just my 2 cents.

  7. #517
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    We'll see if he peaked early.

    I just don't see any reason to expect anything different from him than the idiots he's sucking up to.
    In my estimation he's gaining enough power to not have to dance to their tune anymore. I'm hoping he, and other young republicans like Rand Paul begin to play the tune instead.

    That's just my hope and informed guess at this point. We'll have to wait and see if it holds any water.

  8. #518
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    In any case, I think you're calling me stupid just because you don't like outside criticism. Like you're saying "Screw you. We've got it covered." I disagree that the party has gotten over anything or found their identity just yet. You and Beorn are touching on other points yourself about Rubio, as well as the recent shit with Newt and Rove's SuperPAC. And I'm not convinced the extreme elements of the Tea Party are on the downspin. Who knows what Ted Cruz will do next? There's still plenty of time for Republicans to move away from that, or to further become the butt of jokes.
    I was wrong to call you stupid.

    You probably have a much better understanding of politics than most people.

    I have a problem holding others to unreasonable standards. Especially in areas I consider my specialties.

    The reason your post angered me was that it plays into the whole ongoing narrative so deftly created on the left that Republicans are monsters and deserve to go the way of the whigs (which is not something I think you necessarily agree with).

    Being told how shitty one's party is only serves a purpose so many times. Being someone who was on David Frum's new majority, and later frum forum in 2008 arguing that we should change, and having been doing so over the last 4 years, it sucks to read all about how the party will never change, and how good folks like myself and many others on the right are wasting our breath.

    Having had a ringside seat for the Republican reformation these last years, we've come a lot farther than I thought we would have by this time.

  9. #519
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    In any case, I think you're calling me stupid just because you don't like outside criticism. Like you're saying "Screw you. We've got it covered." I disagree that the party has gotten over anything or found their identity just yet. You and Beorn are touching on other points yourself about Rubio, as well as the recent shit with Newt and Rove's SuperPAC. And I'm not convinced the extreme elements of the Tea Party are on the downspin. Who knows what Ted Cruz will do next? There's still plenty of time for Republicans to move away from that, or to further become the butt of jokes.
    I don't see it as a "tea party" problem. I see it as a more general political problem of people attempting to gain and maintain power and money by exploiting stupid Americans. It has nothing to do with most of the actual ideas of the tea party. Rand Paul does a fine job of representing those ideas. He's regularly invited on MSNBC and handles himself just fine.

    The Irony of Rove's war is that it's against the very people he used to exploit (he's been pretty open about his disdain for evangelicals that he coaxed into voting for bush). Did the evangelicals take back their power with the rise of the tea party? No, not really. The tea party was pretty quickly coopted by DC insiders that saw an oppurtunity as well as libertarians. Case in point is the largest tea party group the tea party express which was started by two DC strategists.

    So this isn't really about ideas, it's about power and control. Right now their is no central authority to keep people in line so people can carve out their own fiefdom of power to the detriment of the larger party (and the country as a whole like when it came to Cruz's stupid witch hunt against Hagel). But, as I said fox and the radio guys have been doing this for the last 15 years.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  10. #520
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    I was wrong to call you stupid.

    You probably have a much better understanding of politics than most people.

    I have a problem holding others to unreasonable standards. Especially in areas I consider my specialties.

    The reason your post angered me was that it plays into the whole ongoing narrative so deftly created on the left that Republicans are monsters and deserve to go the way of the whigs (which is not something I think you necessarily agree with).

    Being told how shitty one's party is only serves a purpose so many times. Being someone who was on David Frum's new majority, and later frum forum in 2008 arguing that we should change, and having been doing so over the last 4 years, it sucks to read all about how the party will never change, and how good folks like myself and many others on the right are wasting our breath.

    Having had a ringside seat for the Republican reformation these last years, we've come a lot farther than I thought we would have by this time.
    Cool man. No, I don't want to see them go away. I might be crazy, but I like the "ugly" tradition of two parties in Congress vying for the Center.

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