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  1. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by BAJ View Post
    Here's another sad one showing the distribution of racist tweets post election:

    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/poli...icle-1.1199402
    Lol, conservatives definitely don't own racism. If you've ever played xbox online, youd know what I mean... I'm black, and conservative. I've lived all over the country in my lifetime, amongst many different sorts of cultures. As a black person who has been to the bible belt, to the south, to liberal CA, do you know what I've experienced? There are racists everywhere you go. To go from say Texas to CA wont allow you to escape racism and bigotry altogether. Rather, you end up just trading one form of racism for another, though you may certainly find racism in the former to be more overt/explicit, and more noticeable. For this reason, I generally don't even consider the amount of racism a particular place has...

    In fact, I'll go further to say this: It's not that conservatives are more racist than liberals. No. It's more like some republicans/conservatives exhibit an explicit form of racism that everyone can see. The liberals, otoh, engage in IMPLICIT racism which many would certainly like to argue can be even more damaging. However, republicans get the really bad rap for it just because it's easier to point out and make them a scapegoat. Not giving anyone an excuse for being racist, but hey, it's the world we live in. It's human nature.

  2. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy View Post
    There are a lot of us out here who would love to see a rational conservative party that would hold to traditional conservative values: fiscal responsibility, limited foreign military involvement, government out of our private lives, reasonably regulated free markets, and conservation of limited resources. The reason so many people voted for Obama and the dems is not because Obama bribed selfish voters, ran a better campaign, or was more effectively negative. The main reason for the repubs' problem is that they are dominated by an incoherent mishmash of religious fundies, science-deniers, self-interested fat cats, and racists. Most republican voters are none of those things, but the radical right wing activists who dominate the party are. If repubs would stop living in denial and making excuses, would marginalize the tea party, and ensure that the religious right can't continue to undermine the First Amendment, they could move back towards the center and become relevant again. But as long as the repubs embrace the crazies and the liars, they'll never get our support. I remember when the dems were too far to the left and they had the good sense to move to the middle (can someone say "Bill Clinton?"). Now the repubs are too far to the right. Will they have the good sense to move to the middle or will they double down on extremism?

    Where is Ike when we need him?
    This was in the comments section of an article about the Republican Governors' gathering. I thought it was well put. Regardless of what you guys think of yourselves and project onto your party (Disco, lowtech, Zara, etc), your party is perceived this way by a large percentage of people, myself included. I see you three as very rational, reasonable people. I see the party you support as a nightmare.
    I don't have the time to respond to, let alone read, all of the simple-minded idiocy that seems to have filled this thread since I left, so I'll just respond to one of the few highly rational liberals in here to what, from a quick scan, seemed to be one of the few thoughtful, worthwhile posts from the left in here. The problem I see with that comment, Jonnyboy, is that, even within it, it recognizes that the majority of Republican voters are not that way. And, while some idiot candidates said some idiotic things (and, it should be noted, did not win because of it) recently, most of the leaders, especially the national leaders, are like the majority of the people who vote for the party: not crazies. We live in a representative democracy. And it was made this way, from the beginning, so that there was a buffer between the crazies and the political decisions made. To point at the idiots who vote Republican, and say, "that's why I can't vote Republican!", is the exact same thing as a Republican pointing to the idiots in the Democratic party (and, while this commenter seems to argue that there no longer is any such thing, or something along those lines, this simply is not true, imo), and saying, "that's why I can't vote Democrat!" It just strikes me as false. Really, what it does, is make a straw man out of your opponent. It doesn't deal with the actual high-level ideas of the party's leaders, it just points to the riff raff and says, "well, if they support this stuff, then it can't be true." This is something that all people interested in politics have likely been guilty of at some point in their lives (hell, many do it their entire lives). I just, well, I've been into politics for a long time now, and that kind of behavior is something I associate with childhood. I used to do it. But sometime during college, I grew up, realized there's legitimacy to both sides' points of view, and that I no longer wanted to be a party shill who ignorantly wrote off the other side's legitimate arguments simply by pointing to their lowest members. That being said, I do not like the riff raff in my party, just as I don't like the riff raff in the Democrat party. In fact, I was heatedly arguing with my conservative friend last night (and while he is much more solidly Republican than I am, he is not at all a crazy) about just this issue. He brought up some good counterpoints, arguing that things that the left readily likes to write off as "crazy" (i.e., believing that abortion should be a state's rights issue, not a federal one, for example) are, in fact, completely intellectually defensible, but that leftists ignore the actual high-level arguments, and choose to focus only on the riff raff, and write the position off as being only the position of the riff raff, without ever actually dealing with the high-level arguments. Frankly, I agree with his argument. I just think that this should be taken into account when one is doing one's messaging, and perhaps leave issues that the left (and their cohorts in the media) will completely blow out of proportion, and repeat ad nauseam, and create misleading ads about, to get one-issue, uneducated voters to be scared off from voting for or feeling comfortable being a part of the party, by appealing to their fear and emotions, when, based on an actual reasonable account of the issue, there wouldn't really be such reason to be scared off in that manner, off the convention platform, so as not to hurt one's chance of winning.

  3. #253
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    As for the idiotic notion that the Republican party, or conservativism, is inherently racist: correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Risen black?

    Not to mention these important conservative intellectual leaders:









    Of course, many on the left would probably call them "house niggers".

    Which, you know, because it comes from the left, isn't racist at all.

    EDIT: Oh, and that's not to mention the, uh, SEVEN Latino speakers at the Republican National Convention. Cuz, you know, all those disgusting, pathetic, old white people in the crowd are such racists, they just like to elect minorities to positions of power, listen to their speeches, cheer for them, donate their hard-earned money to their campaigns, volunteer their time and energy for them, and emotionally invest themselves in them and identify with them, because... ya know, they actually hate/look down on them because of their race...?


  4. #254
    Senior Member BAJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I don't have the time to respond to, let alone read, all of the simple-minded idiocy that seems to have filled this thread since I left, so I'll just respond to one of the few highly rational liberals in here to what, from a quick scan, seemed to be one of the few thoughtful, worthwhile posts from the left in here. The problem I see with that comment, Jonnyboy, is that, even within it, it recognizes that the majority of Republican voters are not that way. And, while some idiot candidates said some idiotic things (and, it should be noted, did not win because of it) recently, most of the leaders, especially the national leaders, are, like the majority of the people who vote for the party, not crazies. We live in a representative democracy. And it was made this way, from the beginning, so that there was a buffer between the crazies and the political decisions made. To point at the idiots who vote Republican, and say, "that's why I can't vote Republican!", is the exact same thing as a Republican pointing to the idiots in the Democratic party (and, while this commenter seems to try to argue that there no longer is any such thing, or something along those lines, this simply is not true, imo), and saying, "that's why I can't vote Democrat!" It just strikes me as false. Really, what it does, is make a straw man out of your opponent. It doesn't deal with the actual high-level ideas of the party's leaders, it just points to the riff raff and says, "well, if they support this stuff, then it can't be true." This is something that all people interested in politics have likely been guilty of at some point in their lives (hell, many do it their entire lives). I just, well, I've been into politics for a long time now, and that kind of behavior is something I associate with childhood. I used to do it. But sometime during college, I grew up, realized there's legitimacy to both sides' points of view, and that I no longer wanted to be a party shill who ignorantly wrote off the other side's legitimate arguments simply by pointing to their lowest members. That being said, I do not like the riff raff in my party, just as I don't like the riff raff in the Democrat party. In fact, I was heatedly arguing with my conservative friend last night (and while he is much more solidly Republican than I am, he, by no means, is a crazy) about just this issue. He brought up some good counterpoints, arguing that things that the left readily likes to write off as "crazy" (i.e., believing that abortion should be a state's rights issue, not a federal one, for example) are, in fact, completely intellectually defensible, but that leftists ignore the actual high-level arguments, and choose to focus only on the riff raff, and write the position off as being only the position of the riff raff, without ever actually dealing with the high-level arguments. Frankly, I agree with his argument. I just think that this should be taken into account when one is doing one's messaging, and perhaps leave issues that left will blow out of proportion, and get one-issue, uneducated voters to be scared off about by appealing to their fear and emotions, when, based on an actual reasonable account of the issue, there wouldn't really be such reason to be scared off.

    Most of the "he so terrible" that I've observed has not just been marginalized fruit cakes, like skinheads sporting signs saying, "Put the white back in the white house", but the main candidates themselves, who I'd presume are not marginalized, extreme elements. Those are the ones I see criticized the most by both sides.

    The irony is that Romney was attacked by other Republican candidates in the primaries as being a vulture capitalist, but then when Democrats do it, it's suddenly bias or something.

    It's also ironic that the Republicans blame Obama for the economy, and they talk about how terrible he is, emphasizing how powerful he is, how responsible he is, but then they say the government doesn't create jobs.

    They talk about how horrible the Federal spending is, but I just posted two different links showing that red states are worse than blue states about using more Federal money than they provide in revenue.

    So far, I think your posts are primarily about how brilliant and open-minded and complex you are, considering every side of the issue, without saying anything. I get it. Everyone else is stupid compared with you.

    Looking at the Republican campaign, I felt the same pomposity and emptiness of rhetoric.

  5. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    That's F***ING BULLS***! California has a ratio of only 78%? Bullshit. Our government spends more than any other state (especially on welfare), also with the highest taxes, and our budget shortfall is a CONSTANT issues, and our counties are tipping on bankruptcy. Don't believe everything you see on the internet.
    Here is the deal

    WE ARE ALSO THE BIGGEST STATE
    WE ARE ALSO THE BIGGEST STATE
    And did I say it? WE ARE ALSO THE BIGGEST STATE.

    The highest tax is questionable, because, other states do, in fact, have higher sales tax than California does. Mississippi state sales tax is higher than California's sales tax (excluding local taxes)

    Because of Prop 13, we also have one of the lowest property taxes in America (doesn't mean anything since cost of living here is still going to be 10x more expensive than some place is like North Dakota or Mississippi.) In fact, we have a LOWER AVERAGE PROPERTY TAX RATE THAN ALASKA - the middle of FREAKING nowhere. This was one of the biggest revenues that neighborhoods, cities, and counties had BEFORE PROP 13 was implemented. Factor that YOUR city, county, and state needed to find ways to rebalance their revenue will lead you to my third point.

    Three, sales tax is a regressive tax, it effects those people you consider on welfare more than it does people making 100k a year. So I call bullshit when most of these people you call welfare recipients pay more into their income on sales taxes than you do. Add to that that these same people contribute more of their significant income towards payroll taxes than you do.

  6. #256
    Senior Member BAJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    Lol, conservatives definitely don't own racism. If you've ever played xbox online, youd know what I mean... I'm black, and conservative. I've lived all over the country in my lifetime, amongst many different sorts of cultures. As a black person who has been to the bible belt, to the south, to liberal CA, do you know what I've experienced? There are racists everywhere you go. To go from say Texas to CA wont allow you to escape racism and bigotry altogether. Rather, you end up just trading one form of racism for another, though you may certainly find racism in the former to be more overt/explicit, and more noticeable. For this reason, I generally don't even consider the amount of racism a particular place has...

    In fact, I'll go further to say this: It's not that conservatives are more racist than liberals. No. It's more like some republicans/conservatives exhibit an explicit form of racism that everyone can see. The liberals, otoh, engage in IMPLICIT racism which many would certainly like to argue can be even more damaging. However, republicans get the really bad rap for it just because it's easier to point out and make them a scapegoat. Not giving anyone an excuse for being racist, but hey, it's the world we live in. It's human nature.

    Fair enough, I experience prejudice too. People automatically assumed I'm racist based on shaving my head.

    Yet, Romney was booed out of the NAACP convention. I saw the tape.

    Mormonism has been in the past a very white church, saying very racist things. Romney was a leader in his church at one time.

    http://www.religioustolerance.org/lds_race2.htm

  7. #257
    Senior Member BAJ's Avatar
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    About California...Here's a solution:

    legalize and tax marijuana


  8. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by BAJ View Post
    Most of the "he so terrible" that I've observed has not just been marginalized fruit cakes, like skinheads sporting signs saying, "Put the white back in the white house", but the main candidates themselves, who I'd presume are not marginalized, extreme elements. Those are the ones I see criticized the most by both sides.
    Yes, and, in general, those criticisms, on both sides, are stupid, simple-minded, and lacking in critical thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by BAJ View Post
    The irony is that Romney was attacked by other Republican candidates in the primaries as being a vulture capitalist, but then when Democrats do it, it's suddenly bias or something.
    Actually, it was stupid when the other Republicans did it, just like it was stupid when the Democrats did it.

    Thank you for another stupid argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by BAJ View Post
    It's also ironic that the Republicans blame Obama for the economy, and they talk about how terrible he is, emphasizing how powerful he is, how responsible he is, but then they say the government doesn't create jobs.
    Really taking the high-road again, I see.

    Not at all doing exactly what I talked about in my post.

    Cuz, you know, if you asked Greg Mankiw about his position on this, he'd prove himself to be an absolute know-nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by BAJ View Post
    They talk about how horrible the Federal spending is, but I just posted two different links showing that red states are worse than blue states about using more Federal money than they provide in revenue.
    Yes, that graphic is the end-all, be-all of the issue.

    You have definitely proven that Republicans don't actually care about reducing federal spending.

    It's not like that's not an absolute non sequitur to begin with, nor couldn't be torn to shreds with just a slight bit of argumentation.

    Quote Originally Posted by BAJ View Post
    So far, I think your posts are primarily about how brilliant and open-minded and complex you are, considering every side of the issue, without saying anything. I get it. Everyone else is stupid compared with you.
    Yes, there hasn't been an ounce of substance to anything I've posted in this thread:

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=1#post1991275
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=1#post1991304
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=1#post1991308
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=1#post1991322
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=1#post1991355
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=1#post1991377
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=1#post1991476
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=1#post1991591
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=1#post1991600
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=1#post1991717
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=1#post1991734
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=1#post1991823
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=1#post1991873
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=1#post1991803

    Thank you for your baseless, ignorant assertions.

    Quote Originally Posted by BAJ View Post
    Looking at the Republican campaign, I felt the same pomposity and emptiness of rhetoric.
    Yes, well, you haven't shown yourself to be a very astute observer.

    Anyway, as I said to you in private, I have no interest in discussing these issues with you.

    Some people are rational enough to have a worthwhile discussion about this stuff with. You are not one of these people.

  9. #259
    null Jonny's Avatar
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    These are net IRS receipts for fiscal year 2009. @Risen @Lateralus

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  10. #260
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Diplomacy is an art form.

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