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  1. #221
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    ^Great post, @Jonnyboy

    A healthy political process needs conservatives to provide caution and stability as well as liberals who question boundaries. Debate over where the boundaries for public goods, government organized services, should be continually debated from different viewpoint to be continually current to match the needs of a changing society.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
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    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
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  2. #222
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    When many (most) who receive government benefits, have no substantive stake in paying for those benefits, they (and those they elect) have no incentive to ever worry about how effectively that money is spent, and more to the point, no incentive to ever vote for anything but more benefits.
    First of all, most people who receive government benefits have been or will people who are not receiving them and have to pay some amount for them. It's not a permanent state of existence, so it doesn't seem accurate to divide whole people like that.

    Secondly, if these people want good benefits and the ability to continue paying for them, then they presumably do have some concern about how well the money is spent.

    Thirdly, my take on this is that if there's no problem with them continuing to vote for that, then there's no reason for them to stop voting that way. If there is a problem with them continuing to vote for that, then you have a case with which to persuade them not to.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    I'm of the opinion, that those who receive most of the benefits should have a stake in paying for them. A stake that, while maybe smaller than those in higher tax brackets, is still large enough make them consider their actions before voting for more largesse.
    I don't think people go to the voting booth looking for gifts. I don't think they calculate voting in that manner.

    This stuff all sounds to me like another rehashing of the makers and takes view of society. If that continues to be the Republican perspective, then the future of the Republican part is to be discussed in history class.
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  3. #223
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    I think you're wrong. I think a great portion of the populace goes into the voting booth with the mentality of "What can government do for me?" Will government give me gay benefits? Will government pay for my abortions? Will government give me citizenship? Will government give me food stamps? Will government pay for my college education? Will government give me more in tax returns? Will government Will government give me free health care? Will government give me a job? WILL GOVERNMENT PAY FOR THE HOOKERS TO S*** MY C***?!

    You get the point, and you know most of you are guilty of thinking this way, no matter how you want to spin the truth of what your desires truly are. You know, in your mind and heart, that this country has turned into a peoples of "What can government do for us," and has ceased being a country of "What can WE do for ourselves, our family, our community, our country?" There will be those of you who continue to lie to yourselves, and i do not come down on you. Politicians and media have lied to you day in and day out from cradle to the grave. What else can you do but gaze upon the political realm, and delude yourself.

  4. #224
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    I think you're wrong. I think a great portion of the populace goes into the voting booth with the mentality of "What can government do for me?" Will government give me gay benefits? Will government pay for my abortions? Will government give me citizenship? Will government give me food stamps? Will government pay for my college education? Will government give me more in tax returns? Will government Will government give me free health care? Will government give me a job? WILL GOVERNMENT PAY FOR THE HOOKERS TO S*** MY C***?!

    You get the point, and you know most of you are guilty of thinking this way, no matter how you want to spin the truth of what your desires truly are. You know, in your mind and heart, that this country has turned into a peoples of "What can government do for us," and has ceased being a country of "What can WE do for ourselves, our family, our community, our country?" There will be those of you who continue to lie to yourselves, and i do not come down on you. Politicians and media have lied to you day in and day out from cradle to the grave. What else can you do but gaze upon the political realm, and delude yourself.
    Psychological projection and cynicism pervades conservatism in how they view others. One example being Risen's post. Another example being the War on Drugs where most conservatives believe that, if drugs are legalized, society will fall apart because millions of people will start abusing. Another example being some of the most adamantly anti-gay Republicans have been caught engaging in homosexuality. There are numerous other examples of this phenomena in conservative views. In the mind of a conservative, everyone who is not like them is a moral reprobate.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #225
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    And does pointing to some conservative and claiming they are projecting somehow exalt you from the same same trap? Be honest Lat. What do YOU want from the government? Or do you claim to be unlike the people who have a list of desires they feel can either be best met by the actions of government, or ONLY met by the government? Which is it?

    I'll be honest, there's a list of things I want from the government too, like everyone else. I want government to minimize its size and roll in society, and provide free strip clubs. Otherwise, I don't expect government to do anything but keep the country from falling off a "fiscal cliff", and maintaining a free, safe environment for the people to live in with good infrastructure.

  6. #226
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    I think you're wrong. I think a great portion of the populace goes into the voting booth with the mentality of "What can government do for me?" Will government give me gay benefits? Will government pay for my abortions? Will government give me citizenship? Will government give me food stamps? Will government pay for my college education? Will government give me more in tax returns? Will government Will government give me free health care? Will government give me a job? WILL GOVERNMENT PAY FOR THE HOOKERS TO S*** MY C***?!

    You get the point, and you know most of you are guilty of thinking this way, no matter how you want to spin the truth of what your desires truly are. You know, in your mind and heart, that this country has turned into a peoples of "What can government do for us," and has ceased being a country of "What can WE do for ourselves, our family, our community, our country?" There will be those of you who continue to lie to yourselves, and i do not come down on you. Politicians and media have lied to you day in and day out from cradle to the grave. What else can you do but gaze upon the political realm, and delude yourself.
    It's always baffled me how in the same breath a republican will repudiate others for being "takers" AND THEN go on to criticize Obama for the fact that they don't have a job/business went under/can't pay back student loans/can't afford the gas prices. It just seems like the same hypocritical game in which the evil "takers" = "people whose needs I don't give a shit about because they're not MY needs."
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  7. #227
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    And does pointing to some conservative and claiming they are projecting somehow exalt you from the same same trap? Be honest Lat. What do YOU want from the government? Or do you claim to be unlike the people who have a list of desires they feel can either be best met by the actions of government, or ONLY met by the government? Which is it?

    I'll be honest, there's a list of things I want from the government too, like everyone else. I want government to minimize its size and roll in society, and provide free strip clubs. Otherwise, I don't expect government to do anything but keep the country from falling off a "fiscal cliff", and maintaining a free, safe environment for the people to live in with good infrastructure.
    Exalt me from what? I'm not claiming everyone who isn't like me is greedy, with no sense of responsibility (I'm not trying to position myself as morally superior, either). Peoples' motivations are complex. Simplifying them, like you and other conservatives do, is pointless. No good policy will ever come from it.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    It's always baffled me how in the same breath a republican will repudiate others for being "takers" AND THEN go on to criticize Obama for the fact that they don't have a job/business went under/can't pay back student loans/can't afford the gas prices. It just seems like the same hypocritical game in which the evil "takers" = "people whose needs I don't give a shit about because they're not MY needs."
    I also said

    I don't expect government to do anything but keep the country from falling off a "fiscal cliff", and maintaining a free, safe environment for the people to live in with good infrastructure.
    That is pretty much the fundamental function of any government. SOMETIMES, when government fails to provide that, and it overreaches in its involvement with private sector economic issues and public spending, particularly in a capitalist environment, it does more harm than good. It creates a toxic economic/business environment. So yes, one can certainly complain about current issues and economic woes when the premise is that government has contributed to the state of said problems, which is a different argument entirely separated from the "What can government give me?" issue, as you do not see most republicans asking the government to DO anything, rather, to STOP exacerbating these problems.

    The question is why is that not clear to you?

  9. #229
    respect the brick C.J.Woolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Another example being some of the most adamantly anti-gay Republicans have been caught engaging in homosexuality.
    I used to scratch my head at that, but now I figure that publicly anti-gay closet cases are, in a way, consistent: they feel that no one should be gay, including themselves. What a hellish way to live.

    In the mind of a conservative, everyone who is not like them is a moral reprobate.
    I think it's more like they know that they themselves are moral reprobates, or would be without outside discipline, and they assume everyone is like that. It all fits with the high incidence of drug abuse and unwed pregnancy in the Bible Belt. Some people need outside discipline to stay on the straight and narrow. Their lives would be better if they seek it. Just don't assume that I need it too, thankyouverymuch.

  10. #230
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    I wish these "traditional conservatives" would branch out from the Republican party and found their own party. Thanks to the concept of a political coalition - and assuming this is allowed in the American political system - they won't have to worry about losing elections due to a divided vote. A tri-party system ought to shake things up in a good way, and I can definitely see such a shuffle putting the conservatives in a very favourable position. This branch-out would most likely have both the political and the financial capital to avoid the ditch in which all the other alternative parties are stuck. Having more than two relatively moderate parties (on the American political axis) will also lead to better representation. It's win all-around, except for the grand old cats of the GOP.

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