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  1. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    But that family for instance their are some people have a narrow interpretation of a proper family as one that has one woman, one man and their children. So them promoting their idea of family will be unintentionally alienating to single parent families, blended families and LGBT families.
    I think you're making assumptions about the social stances the party is going to take in the future.

    When I say we need to support the family, I mean gay as well as strait marriage, as do all the young intellectual conservatives I know.

  2. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rail Tracer View Post
    About this point, one can say that the Democratic Party of today is a better living embodiment of what America try to accomplish through the 50's and 60's.


    Tell that to all the Pakistani children who've been victims of drone strikes.

  3. #193
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    I think you're making assumptions about the social stances the party is going to take in the future.

    When I say we need to support the family, I mean gay as well as strait marriage, as do all the young intellectual conservatives I know.
    Gay marriage was a part of what I said but not the main component. My point was that some people feel alienated by current republican ideals. All those word you said are sort of abstract feel good terms that to me are sort of euphemisms republicans used to describe a world free of problems brought on by the new strength of demographics like blacks, immigrants and college educated women.

    So my comment was just input for young rebubplicans on what puts me off about their party. I don't feel welcome there and its not centered around gay marriage for me because I'm not gay. I think it's incorrect for them to van gay marriage but the real difficulty I have with them is not that.

    If you go back to my original post I think there is more to address there.

  4. #194
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Been reading this thread and aside from repping some of Disco's posts didn't have anything useful to add but figured, since it was brought up that this thread is a discussion about the future of the Republican Party, would add my own two cents:

    Something about me: I consider myself a conservative (by my own definition anyway), registered as a Libertarian though because I truly do not identify with the Republican Party as it exists currently. If the GOP wants to grab voters like me then I have the following requests

    1) They need to drop all the bullshit rhetoric. ALL. OF. IT. The GOP totally lost me when they went on with the whole "Why do you hate America?" load of crap during the Bush years. They need to ditch the O'Reillys, the Glenn Becks, the Ann Coulters and provide a more positive, more rational message. I realize many conservatives don't care for the above mentioned individuals but the GOP needs to realize that these morons are the ones getting all the publicity. Please shift it to rational, forward thinking individuals.

    2) They need to provide a perspective that reflects modern America instead of an idealized America that doesn't exist anymore or have never existed in the first place. Its not the 50's anymore, it's 2012. We are not a white Christian nation anymore. The moral values of the 50's are not entirely the same as the moral values of 2012. Gays exist. Atheists (myself included) exist. Immigrants exist and all three are here to stay. The GOP needs to find ways of reaching out to these groups instead of demonizing them. They need to get a realistic view of how the world works and why people do the things they do and stop creating these narratives that don't exist.

    3) They need to provide economic solutions that reflect a realistic understanding of how our system functions currently. This line is aimed more toward the An-Caps of my own party and some of the radical elements of the GOP but government more or less is here to stay. I'm in favor of limiting it or only having the government involved where its really necessary, and of taking a low-taxes-pro-growth approach to thing but sometimes the "lower taxes!" crowd, particularly on Capital Hill, seems to mindlessly demand lower taxes without much thought to the damage done by cutting government revenue or the need for government revenue for a particular program.

    Example (/steps on to his soap box): Here in Florida a few years ago they passed a law that cut property taxes and gave homeowners a minor decrease in their total savings but ended up having a negative impact on the funds for available for emergency services in the county that I work in and the state didn't really do anything to make up FOR those funds. As a result, they had to let go a lot of firefighters, EMTs, and paramedics in my county and do you know what happened when the individual townships and cities opted to raise their individual taxes to make up for the costs? The people in my county voted against it because "they didn't want to raise taxes".

    Look, I'm all for lower taxes but there needs to be some common sense to this and reducing the EMS people in your town to get there just seems kind of stupid to me and it displays to me that they're more interested in cutting taxes without giving any thought as to how our current system is set up and what the consequences of cutting taxes could be.

    4) Finally, the GOP needs to demonstrate to me an ability to negotiate, compromise, and otherwise bend away from ideology in order to make what would genuinely be a beneficial law or proposal a reality. The current members of the GOP in Washington have yet to demonstrate this ability to me, particularly during the Obama administration.

    If the GOP does those four things then I would definitely be inclined toward jumping ship and siding with them but if they continue to be as they have been since 2000 then I will remain firmly against them. I don't agree with Democrats on a lot of things they're doing but they at least (to me anyway) seem to have some understanding of how today's world works and I feel the election results reflect that I'm not alone in thinking this.
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

  5. #195
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    @tinker683

    I think all of these are really good points.

    Do you think that more modern minded conservatives who agree with you will just continue to defect to the libertarians leaving the republicans as sort of an outdated and increasingly extremist seeming party? That's kind of been my thought. Most independents I know and many younger conservatives (children of die hard republicans) are more comfortable with libertarians than republicans.

  6. #196
    Senior Member BAJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    I would stop posting and sit the next few rounds out.

    What the article is saying is that Conservatives, have to fight the culture war in the classroom and on the movie screen. We don't need to go after those who dont take part in these institutions, we do need to change the narratives within them.
    I didn't miss that. In fact, I'm amused. What I was saying is that it might be easier to just make sure people don't go to these indoctrinating institutions. The percentage increase in the college educated would...according to the current society...be bad for Republicans.

    Take back institutions? You have Republican senators who are wrong about basic human biology and believe in a young Earth. Good luck.

    I love what that governor said and tink. Man, I see no vision of my owning a little piece of ground. It's well over 6 figures what people say I owe for medical bills. I'll never have nothing in this world and don't have feeling anyone gives a flying fuck. And the current climate of the Republicans has nothing for me. As I said, I don't fit into their convention floor even if I am white. I have a feeling I'm shit to them; that I'm part of the 50% they don't care about...that I don't matter.

    The best I encountered on the "conservative side" was the John Ringo Trilogy about a Libertarian hero who saves the solar system by investing in space and defending the solar system from aliens with giant lasars they used for asteroid mining. That trilogy made me think, however the main character kept his profit at 2% to spread the benefits to all mankind.

    I didn't feel like I had a place in the novel...I felt alienated, but it made me think.

    This government debt is the most critical issue, and the Republicans don't reduce it. Their fiscal conservatism seems only to benefit themselves. They seem predators on the people.

    It's a long way out to gain any ground culturally. How the dickens are they going to do it?

  7. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by BAJ View Post
    I didn't miss that. In fact, I'm amused. What I was saying is that it might be easier to just make sure people don't go to these indoctrinating institutions. The percentage increase in the college educated would...according to the current society...be bad for Republicans.

    Take back institutions? You have Republican senators who are wrong about basic human biology and believe in a young Earth. Good luck.

    I love what that governor said and tink. Man, I see no vision of my owning a little piece of ground. It's well over 6 figures what people say I owe for medical bills. I'll never have nothing in this world and don't have feeling anyone gives a flying fuck. And the current climate of the Republicans has nothing for me. As I said, I don't fit into their convention floor even if I am white. I have a feeling I'm shit to them; that I'm part of the 50% they don't care about...that I don't matter.

    The best I encountered on the "conservative side" was the John Ringo Trilogy about a Libertarian hero who saves the solar system by investing in space and defending the solar system from aliens with giant lasars they used for asteroid mining. That trilogy made me think, however the main character kept his profit at 2% to spread the benefits to all mankind.

    I didn't feel like I had a place in the novel...I felt alienated, but it made me think.

    This government debt is the most critical issue, and the Republicans don't reduce it. Their fiscal conservatism seems only to benefit themselves. They seem predators on the people.

    It's a long way out to gain any ground culturally. How the dickens are they going to do it?
    I don't think there's anything substantive here to respond to.

    The thread isn't, what's your laundry list of issues with the Republican party as it existed between 2000 and 2012.

    Saying they're never going to change, or continually referring to the few of them that have the most extreme social stances gets us nowhere.

    So unless you have something constructive to say about where they should go to improve their standing as a party, feel free to lurk.

  8. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    Do you think that more modern minded conservatives who agree with you will just continue to defect to the libertarians leaving the republicans as sort of an outdated and increasingly extremist seeming party?
    No.

  9. #199
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    @tinker683

    I think all of these are really good points.

    Do you think that more modern minded conservatives who agree with you will just continue to defect to the libertarians leaving the republicans as sort of an outdated and increasingly extremist seeming party? That's kind of been my thought. Most independents I know and many younger conservatives (children of die hard republicans) are more comfortable with libertarians than republicans.
    I doubt it, but really I don't know. I'm 29 years old and registered as a Democrat back in 2004 not because I was particularly fond of John Kerry but because I did not like the Bush-era Republicans and what they were doing. I switch to the Libertarian party in 2008 when I realized that neither party quite represented me very well and have been there ever since.

    I don't know what sort of journey the GOP is about to go on in light of this election and where its individual members go is up to them. As for me, I'm hopefully they'll survive. I feel like they could be the party that would represent individuals like me but that they aren't right now
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

  10. #200
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    From Rod Dreher at The American Conservative:

    Here, GOP, Is Your Problem

    [This article refers to 2 tweets from Grover Norquist]

    James Bennet @JBennet

    G Norquist: We'd get growth by "taking the trail lawyers and putting them in a plastic bag and floating them down the Potomac." #ideasforum
    15 Nov 12
    James Bennet @JBennet

    Grover Norquist insisting to (somewhat incredulous) @chucktodd that election of GOP House means public opposed to tax increases #ideasforum
    15 Nov 12
    Look, it doesn’t require developing love for trial lawyers or tax increases to recognize that this kind of stupid, mindless, red-meat crap from Grover Norquist is a big part of the GOP’s problem, not the solution to its problems. These guys are like ghosts who don’t realize they’re dead. They just keep saying the same things over and over again, because that’s all they know to do. And they mistake partisan audiences hooting over these stale applause lines for popular support.

    Hey Republicans, listen to US Rep. Jeff Fortenberry, a commonsense Nebraska Republican and strong social conservative, who told me for TAC earlier this year:

    RD: You broke party ranks last year by refusing to renew your pledge not to vote for any future tax increases. Since when do Republican congressmen dare to defy Grover Norquist?

    JF: My responsibility is to make judgments about hard, complex issues that I believe to be right. Simply looking at the status quo and suggesting that the tax code is sacrosanct and can never change, and that decisions made in the ’80s and ’90s can never change, is absurd. The tax code is weighted toward the ultra-wealthy and ultra-wealthy corporations, and has created an offshore aristocracy of people who can afford to hire an army of accountants and lawyers. This shifts the tax burden to small businesses, entrepreneurs, and others. I don’t want to see taxes go up on any hardworking American. We need a simpler, fairer tax code. Removing special-interest loopholes could potentially increase revenues and allow for lower rates.
    We’ll know the Republicans are serious about change when they start standing up to ideological enforcers like Norquist in public forums and telling him where to get off.

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