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  1. #151
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    People who think the economy will be healthy any time soon should watch this:

    http://video.pbs.org/video/1308436568

    We're lucky we're not in a depression.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #152
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    My feeling was that this economy will be suffering for about a decade at least, and especially with Obama being reelected, I see it as another 10 years of minimal growth or return to collapse. I have made my life plans accordingly, in anticipation of the economy sucking for at least a decade. Changed career plans on that premise.

  3. #153
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    I have made my life plans accordingly, in anticipation of the economy sucking for at least a decade. Changed career plans on that premise.
    So you're no longer going to be a forum junkie. (That's fine, we don't pay well.)

    What career are you focusing on?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #154
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    From David Frum at CNN:

    Conservatives, don't despair

    Washington (CNN) -- The mood among American conservatives is now one of apocalyptic despair.

    Having convinced themselves that this election arrayed freedom against tyranny, they now must wonder: Did their country just democratically vote in favor of tyranny?

    On Fox News election night, BIll O'Reilly explained the meaning of the election: the "white establishment" was now outnumbered by minorities. "The demographic are changing. It's not a traditional America anymore." And these untraditional Americans "want stuff. They want things. And who is going to give them things? President Obama. He knows it, and he ran on it."

    O'Reilly's analysis is echoed across the conservative blogosphere. The (non-white) takers now outnumber the (white) makers. They will use their majority to pillage the makers and redistribute to the takers. In the process, they will destroy the sources of the country's wealth and end the American experiment forever.

    You'll hear O'Reilly's view echoed wherever conservatives express themselves.

    Happily, the view is wrong, and in every respect.

    America is not a society divided between "makers" and "takers." Instead, almost all of us proceed through a life cycle where we sometimes make and sometimes take as we pass from schooling to employment to retirement.

    The line between "making" and "taking" is not a racial line. The biggest government program we have, Medicare, benefits a population that is 85% white.

    President Barack Obama was not re-elected by people who want to "take." The president was re-elected by people who want to work -- and who were convinced, rightly or wrongly, that the president's policies were more likely to create work than were the policies advocated by my party.

    The United States did not vote for socialism. It could not do so, because neither party offers socialism. Both parties champion a free enterprise economy cushioned by a certain amount of social insurance. The Democrats (mostly) want more social insurance, the Republicans want less. National politics is a contest to move the line of scrimmage, in a game where there's no such thing as a forward pass, only a straight charge ahead at the defensive line. To gain three yards is a big play.

    Whatever you think of the Obama record, it's worth keeping in mind that by any measure, free enterprise has been winning the game for a long, long time to this point.

    Compare the United States of 2012 to the United States of 1962. Leave aside the obvious points about segregation and discrimination, and look only at the economy.

    In 1962, the government regulated the price and route of every airplane, every freight train, every truck and every merchant ship in the United States. The government regulated the price of natural gas. It regulated the interest on every checking account and the commission on every purchase or sale of stock. Owning a gold bar was a serious crime that could be prosecuted under the Trading with the Enemy Act. The top rate of income tax was 91%.

    It was illegal to own a telephone. Phones had to be rented from the giant government-regulated monopoly that controlled all telecommunications in the United States. All young men were subject to the military draft and could escape only if they entered a government-approved graduate course of study. The great concern of students of American society -- of liberals such as David Riesman, of conservatives such as Russell Kirk, and of radicals such as Dwight Macdonald -- was the country's stultifying, crushing conformity.

    Even if you look only at the experiences of white heterosexual men, the United States of 2012 is a freer country in almost every way than the United States of 1962.

    Obama has changes in mind that conservatives and Republicans will oppose. He will want to raise taxes, he will want to sustain social spending at a permanently higher level, he has in mind new regulations over health care, energy production and banking. He'll win some, he'll lose some. To the extent that his wins prove injurious, future Republican Congresses and administrations will struggle to undo them. That's politics: a contest that never ends, and in which the only certainty is the certainty of constant change.

    The Republican challenge next is to reassemble a new coalition for limited government and private enterprise. That coalition must include Americans of all ethnicities. To assume from the start that only certain ethnicities will contribute, and that others aspire only to grab, is not only ugly prejudice; it is also self-destructive delusion.

    People of all backgrounds want to create, save and contribute to society. A party of the center-right should make them all feel at home, regardless of how they pronounce their last name, the complexion of their skin or the way in which they express love and build family.

    The Roman Catholic Church deems despair a mortal sin. To abandon hope is to reject the reality of goodness and to forswear future action. The United States is a great and good country, and it remains great and good even when we do not get all our own way politically. The United States is a tolerant and free country, which means that there are no "tipping points" beyond which it becomes impossible to correct mistakes.

    Fifty years ago, Marxism was still a live intellectual force in British universities. Marxists taught that human society must inevitably evolve into a socialist dictatorship of the proletariat. The great British conservative historian Hugh Trevor-Roper scoffed at this arrogance. He said, "When radicals scream that victory is indubitably theirs, sensible conservatives knock them on the nose. It is only very feeble conservatives who take such words as true and run round crying for the last sacraments."

    We need more sensible conservatives. As for the feeble conservatives, they should take a couple of aspirin and then stay quietly indoors until the temper has subsided and they are ready to say and do something useful again.

  5. #155
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    A Young Republican Looks Forward

    Former Frum Forum writer Jeb Golinkin on the future of the GOP

    Bill O'Reilly commented not so eloquently that the election shows that the white establishment has been displaced by a rainbow coalition they hardly recognize and are not dealing all that well with. He was clumsy in his description, but I would submit he isn't wrong.

    The newest round of Medicare beneficiaries was born in 1947. If you were born in '47 in Mississippi, Georgia, Alabama, or any state in the deep south, for that matter, consider how much change you have seen over the course of your lifetime. The Supreme Court did not strike down separate but equal until you were eight years old.

    The bottom line here is that in a Republican party which is old, white, southern, and male, it should not be altogether surprising that its base seems scared, confused, and stuck in the past.

    If you were a 65 year olds who grew up in a mostly white, mostly male dominated, still religious, and almost universally homophobic society, you might be confused too—today, a smart, cool, likable Harvard educated black dude is President. We just elected an openly gay Senator, and gay marriage is rapidly becoming the law of the land. Hispanics are the largest growing population group in the United States, and people are talking about how the jobs these old white people held in in their not so clean factories are quite literally destroying the world.

    So yeah, the pace of change could be a bit overwhelming.

    I am 24 years old. I grew up in Houston, which recently surpassed New York and Los Angeles as the most diverse city in the United States of America. I realize pollution is bad, and while I am very proud of being a Texan, I take no pride in my state's one time membership in the Confederacy. I was taught to believe in God...but I was also taught, unequivocally, that evolution is a scientific fact of life and that faith in Science carries over to the environment and other areas. My time has been defined in large part by debates about what rights non citizens have. The 65 plus crowd dealt with the far less pleasant topic of what rights our own citizens have here in America.

    Over the past week, I have been told over and over that my party is full of irresponsible, hateful lunatics hellbent on preserving a world order that simply does not exist anymore. I have been instructed that conservative causes are dead and that Barack Obama won an astonishing mandate. I have been told that the conservative political movement has no future in these United States of America.

    All of this is only temporarily true. I and others like me will become the face of a very different conservative movement. It will defend the rights of women, of gays, of blacks. Our movement will adopt a Hamiltonian posture in the way we discuss government. We will ensure that the instruments of government are used not to give but rather to encourage. We will move government away from handing out carrots and instead use the carrots to encourage people to improve their own lives. Out with Solyndra, in with cap and trade. Pro pay for performance, anti-"take whatever you want" healthcare. In with government funded service at private convenient care clinics, out with government funded ER care except in exception circumstances. In with pay for performance in teaching, out with tenure. In with charter schools and vouchers, out with failure factories. More OIRA discretion, less EPA discretion. And so on.

    The conflict between collectivism and individualism has always been overstated. Our country has always valued both. The question has always been of how to strike the balance between the two values. If left unchecked, the Democratic Party will push country towards the collectivist side of the spectrum in ways that will, and perhaps already do, make many Americans uncomfortable. For those young people out there who consider themselves "socially liberal and fiscally conservive," our time is rapidly approaching. William F. Buckley rebuilt conservatism in the 1980s into a modern movement. In 2008, David Frum launched a movement to build a conservatism that can win again. Do not abandon the movement yet. Our time is coming, and we are better prepared to apply our conservative principles to the new world than the generation which seems to be lost at sea.

  6. #156
    respect the brick C.J.Woolf's Avatar
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    I wish Jeb Golinkin and conservatives like him well. But are there enough of them to make a difference?

  7. #157
    Senior Member BAJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    From David Frum at CNN:

    Conservatives, don't despair


    I didn't read the whole thread, but this is very interesting. I thought basically all conservatives were ignorant of these facts. I guess I thought that because many conservatives I meet are of the literal apocalyptic type, who believe Obama is an Anti-Christ in league with the Muslims, everything is leading to a final battle in the Middle East with the return of Jesus.

    Very few knew that the highest tax was above 90%, or anything about history.

    One very striking feature of the conventions was that I noticed the Republican floor was a sea of white people and conformity.

    The Democratic convention floor was filled with diversity with every color, shape, and religion. They dressed more diverse as well. I had an overwhelming impression that I fit more in the diversity.

    With Romney getting booed out of the NAACP, and the 47% comment, there seems an almost insurmountable mission to become the party of diversity.

    I think I'm part of the diversity. I'm a sort bald, artistic hippie who dresses weird or may have odd proclivities.

    Yet, if I really believed that Republicans would curve the deficit, I might even vote for them. However, they presented no plan or vision which had any practical gravity. They presented mathematical fallacies and rhetoric as truth.

  8. #158
    Senior Member BAJ's Avatar
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    Dear Republicans,

    This is a conservative pundit or something. Skip to about 9:00 or 10:00. This guy suggests that Republicans must reject "moronic, idiotic, social conservatism crap" if they want to survive as a party.

    http://www.boortz.com/Player/101701171/

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by C.J.Woolf View Post
    I wish Jeb Golinkin and conservatives like him well. But are there enough of them to make a difference?
    Voters like Jeb and myself ARE the future of the party.

    I think you guys are going to have a hell of a time beating us.

  10. #160
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Voters like Jeb and myself ARE the future of the party.

    I think you guys are going to have a hell of a time beating us.

    Fine: Rubik's Cube Solve-Off -- winner takes all!!
    The fate of the country hangs in the balance.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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