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  1. #121
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I think it's pretty clear that most Americans (including some Republican voters) don't buy the argument that a small tax increase for people making over $250k will slow the economy.
    I know the polls can be shaky, especially when it comes to asking Americans about economics, but it appears to confirm that Americans do indeed already think that. It is partly responsible for the Republicans' down ballot failure. I don't really see why trying this again would work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    If Obama was proposing a tax rate increase of 10% or more, I could understand the resistance, but such a minor tax rate increase is hardly radical. If this is where Republicans choose to dig in, it will cost them.
    Let's see what they do with immigration.
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  2. #122
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    There's been nothing said that Republicans aren't willing to raise taxes. In fact, Boehner said the exact opposite.

    He's merely said that we should accomplish it by getting rid of deductions, not by raising marginal tax rates.

    Higher income tax rates on corporations and the wealthy have negative effects on economic growth.

    So why not accomplish the increase in tax revenue by getting rid of loopholes and deductions?

    I've seen no evidence that getting rid of these has negative effects on economic growth.

    You can even keep deductions in place for people under a certain income level.

  3. #123
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    There's been nothing said that Republicans aren't willing to raise taxes. In fact, Boehner said the exact opposite.

    He's merely said that we should accomplish it by getting rid of deductions, not by raising marginal tax rates.
    We know damn well that the Democrats want to actually raise income tax rates, and that's what we mean here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Higher income tax rates on corporations and the wealthy have negative effects on economic growth.
    The Congressional Budget Office just released a report saying this wouldn't have any significant impact on growth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    So why not accomplish the increase in tax revenue by getting rid of loopholes and deductions?
    There are a lot of loopholes and deductions I'm all for getting rid of, but they won't amount to as much revenue as we can get from actually raising tax rates, and so far it appears that Republicans most enjoy cutting these things for middle class people and not so much for corporations.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    We know damn well that the Democrats want to actually raise income tax rates, and that's what we mean here.
    And I don't give a flying fuck what the Democrats want.

    You think winning a close race for the Presidency gives you some legislative mandate?

    If that were the case, the American People wouldn't have kept the House squarely with the Republicans.

    This is about compromise; don't think the Democrats can just go stomping around thinking they're gunna get whatever they want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    The Congressional Budget Office just released a report saying this wouldn't have any significant impact on growth.
    Are you talking about the CRS report by Thomas Hungerford?

    If so, I have not read the whole thing yet, but I did read a summary, and found it unconvincing.

    It dealt with just one small part of the issue, completely ignoring other key and crucial parts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    There are a lot of loopholes and deductions I'm all for getting rid of, but they won't amount to as much revenue as we can get from actually raising tax rates...
    This seems much more informed by opinion than fact.

    You certainly can raise taxes just as much, or more, by eliminating loopholes and deductions.

    It's all a matter of which loopholes and deductions you eliminate, and how much you were going to raise tax rates.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    ...and so far it appears that Republicans most enjoy cutting these things for middle class people and not so much for corporations.
    Romney's plan was exactly what I said: keep the deductions available up to a certain level, so middle income Americans would keep them, but the rich would not. Likewise, he and I both support taxing capital gains, interest, and dividends on a progressive basis, so middle income Americans aren't taxed on their savings, but the wealthy are.

  5. #125
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    I have major issues when either party decides that because they win by any margin that means they are handed some kind of glided plaque of righteousness with which to do whatever the fuck they want.

    The bully tactics need to stop if the point is to actually work together. So far, all I see is a lot of people making their mouths flap over the words "Work Across the Aisle" which translates in action to "Do what we want or else."

    What's his name in the Senate now wants to limit the powers that the minority has. This will go swimmingly until the next time the Dems hold the minority and then there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth over "however the fuck did this happen to us?"

    Screw it. I'm seceding to Saturn. Which means I am seceding to myself. Booya.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    I have major issues when either party decides that because they win by any margin that means they are handed some kind of glided plaque of righteousness with which to do whatever the fuck they want.
    I actually saw someone make the argument on facebook that, because Obama won reelection, clearly all Republican ideas are wrong.

  7. #127
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    I have major issues when either party decides that because they win by any margin that means they are handed some kind of glided plaque of righteousness with which to do whatever the fuck they want.

    The bully tactics need to stop if the point is to actually work together. So far, all I see is a lot of people making their mouths flap over the words "Work Across the Aisle" which translates in action to "Do what we want or else."

    What's his name in the Senate now wants to limit the powers that the minority has. This will go swimmingly until the next time the Dems hold the minority and then there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth over "however the fuck did this happen to us?"

    Screw it. I'm seceding to Saturn. Which means I am seceding to myself. Booya.
    *sigh*

    If I heard this statement to come from a Republican congressman, I'd call it extreme hypocrisy. The Republicans have struck me unbudging, extremists and obstructionists. This mandate to do whatever the Democrats want? Apparently that's what it's called when we want one fucking concession from the Republican party.

    And you know who has made the best case for the power of the Democratic party right now? The Republican party. They're the ones that have spent the past two years basically saying "we are guaranteed to take control of the government in 2012, or may lightning strike us dead". Well, it's time for that lightning, folks!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I actually saw someone make the argument on my newsfeed that, because Obama won reelection, clearly all Republican ideas are wrong.
    If someone actually said that, that person is being an idiot. That does not seem to relate to what I consider the general Democratic position, which is just for some concessions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    And I don't give a flying fuck what the Democrats want.

    You think winning a close race for the Presidency gives you some legislative mandate?

    If that were the case, the American People wouldn't have kept the House squarely with the Republicans.

    This is about compromise; don't think the Democrats can just go stomping around thinking they're gunna get whatever they want.
    My response here is pretty much the same as the response to Saturned above. That the best thing you can say for the Republicans this election cycle is that they still have the House majority at all is damning praise. And the Democrats are not asking for particularly much as far as I'm concerned. You are completely over-reacting to a demand for the Bush era tax cuts to expire on the wealthy.

    I just cannot get over how one-sided the Republican party's concept of compromise has become. If I were one of the Democrats that tried to negotiated with the republicans for the past two years, I think I'd feel like Nevile Chamberlain right now. I got the impression that Republicans really thought they would sabotage every process in the government under the assumption that they would just enough power to do whatever they wanted after 2012, and that it turns out they are actually weaker than they were in 2010, they're throwing a temper tantrum and trying to run through their plan anyway. Unless Boehner and McConnel walk different from their talk when they get to the negotiating table, I will continue to have this impression.

    Every Republican politician who's asking for everything to be done their way right now, that's calling the Democratic demands "unfair", strikes me as a selfish, ignorant, pussy. That's what I think. I expect the Democrats to take this election and push forward on the things they've been asking for in the past 2 years, and in doing that they're going to be a lot nicer than I would be

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Are you talking about the CRS report by Thomas Hungerford?

    If so, I have not read the whole thing yet, but I did read a summary, and found it unconvincing.

    It dealt with just one small part of the issue, completely ignoring other key and crucial parts.
    Article about this.

    The Report itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    This seems much more informed by opinion than fact.

    You certainly can raise taxes just as much, or more, by eliminating loopholes and deductions.

    It's all a matter of which loopholes and deductions you eliminate, and how much you were going to raise tax rates.
    You say that like a man with the facts on hand. So why don't you give us some comparative numbers?
    The last sentence is obvious to the degree of pointlessness. I will say that the limit you hit in eliminating the deductions and loopholes comes long before the limit you hit with raising tax rates.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Romney's plan was exactly what I said: keep the deductions available up to a certain level, so middle income Americans would keep them, but the rich would not. Likewise, he and I both support taxing capital gains, interest, and dividends on a progressive basis, so middle income Americans aren't taxed on their savings, but the wealthy are.
    Those must be some really progressive capital gains taxes.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    *sigh*

    If I heard this statement to come from a Republican congressman, I'd call it extreme hypocrisy. The Republicans have struck me unbudging, extremists and obstructionists. This mandate to do whatever the Democrats want? Apparently that's what it's called when we want one fucking concession from the Republican party.

    And you know who has made the best case for the power of the Democratic party right now? The Republican party. They're the ones that have spent the past two years basically saying "we are guaranteed to take control of the government in 2012, or may lightning strike us dead". Well, it's time for that lightning, folks!
    My point, which perhaps I need to just baldly state, is this: Both parties are pretty much the same when it comes to being whiney and hipocritical. I am not impressed with this.

    Are you saying that the Democrat party is never hipocritical?

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Opinions...
    From CNN:

    Taxing the rich is not enough

    NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- Is it possible to solve the nation's debt woes just by hiking taxes on the rich?

    Probably not.

    Even if marginal income tax rates were almost 100% for the richest Americans, that still might not yield enough new revenue to keep debt under control.

    The findings, reported Thursday by the Tax Policy Center and the Pew Charitable Trusts, underscore the necessity of finding a balanced approach to budgeting in the near future.

    The report assumes current tax policy as a starting point, and targets debt at 60% of gross domestic product, widely considered to be a sustainable level.

    "Increasing the top two or top three individual income tax rates alone cannot achieve the debt-to-GDP targets under some ... scenarios," the report said.

    "You just have a very big gap and not that much income up there to fill it," said Eric Toder of the Tax Policy Center.

    Of course, politicians aren't advocating for the top rates to go anywhere near 100%.

    Take Obama for instance.

    He wants to let the top two tax rates -- currently 33% and 35% -- revert to their pre-2001 levels of 36% and 39.6%.

    Most folks in the top two brackets, however, would still benefit from the continuation of the 10%, 15%, 25% and 28% rates on the portion of their income subject to the lower brackets.
    By historical standards, those rates are pretty low. While income tax rates for top earners have been below 40% since 1986, they were as high as 91% in the 1960s.

    Republicans want to go the opposite direction, with every remaining 2012 candidate now promising reductions in marginal income rates for most taxpayers.

    To balance those tax cuts out, and still lower deficits, Republicans must be prepared to slash huge amounts of spending from the budget, a difficult task when Pentagon spending is still off-limits for many party leaders.

    And that's just not feasible.

    The looming debt problem is just too big. Reducing it by spending cuts alone would require draconian changes that could hurt the economy far more than a mix of spending cuts and tax increases.
    America's debt challenge

    And that's what the Pew study illustrates so effectively. An approach to deficit reduction that focuses only on spending cuts, or only on revenue, is likely to produce quite a bit of pain for targeted groups.

    With federal spending on track to expand further over the next decade, most budget experts agree that lawmakers must consider an all-of-the-above approach that means tough choices for both parties.

    President Obama's fiscal commission, which never gained the necessary traction with the White House or Congress, acknowledged as much.

    "Together, we have reached these unavoidable conclusions: The problem is real. The solution will be painful. There is no easy way out. Everything must be on the table. And Washington must lead," the report said.

    The commission recommended hiking taxes, cutting military spending, getting health care costs under control, increasing the social security retirement age, among other proposals.

    The plan went nowhere.

    And with lawmakers from both political parties locked in election mode for the rest of the year, there are few indications any real steps toward deficit reduction will be taken until at least the new year. To top of page

  10. #130
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    I've already said elsewhere that I'm open to taxes on the middle class, that I want big cuts to the defense budget, and that a true national health system in place of Medicaid and Medicare would cut health care costs in half or perhaps down to about 60% of what they currently are.
    So, low and behold, I'm not limiting my solutions to increasing taxes on the rich. Saying that increased taxes on the rich will fail to rid the earth of its ills is not a great argument against doing so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    My point, which perhaps I need to just baldly state, is this: Both parties are pretty much the same when it comes to being whiney and hipocritical. I am not impressed with this.

    Are you saying that the Democrat party is never hipocritical?
    The Democrats have simply been less hypocritical for a couple of decades. And, hypocritical or not, they've played nicer and been more cooperative. For this reason the USA's political spectrum as rapidly moved right since 1980, and to hear Republicans complaining about Democrats wanting it their was is just ridiculous.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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