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  1. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    ??
    Because you make it sound like it's all so easy.

    And, in so doing, you make it clear that you just don't understand the actual inherent difficulty of the situation.

    As such, you come off as someone arrogantly complaining that other people aren't doing a good job, when, clearly, you don't understand the difficulties that the job actually entails.

    As such, it comes off as completely absurd.

  2. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Because you make it sound like it's all so easy.

    And, in so doing, you make it clear that you just don't understand the actual inherent difficulty of the situation.

    As such, you come off as someone arrogantly complaining that other people aren't doing a good job, when, clearly, you don't understand the difficulties that the job actually entails.

    As such, it comes off as completely absurd.
    ??
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    ??
    I don't know if I can go back any further.

    I'd have to start getting into the details of dealing with that annoying ass, Rush Limbaugh.

    Back when he made that slut comment, or whatever, there was some great piece made, possibly by NPR, about the incredible difficulty of dealing with Rush Limbaugh for any Republican politician. He yields so much influence, because he has such a large audience, that Republican politicians, whether they want to or not, have to perform a sort of awkward dance with him. Romney actually came out and made a statement distancing himself from Limbaugh over that incident, but there's only so far, as a candidate, you want to be touching on that stuff, because it will likely seriously hurt you if you get in bad graces with the man, but you also want to create genuine separation from the stupid shit he has said. In the end, it ended up tainting Romney in some sense, despite his attempt at separation, as did the retarded Akin and Murdock comments, because, well, that's largely just the nature of things. I don't completely disagree that it would be nice to be able to manage your image better wrt these things, I just don't think it's nearly as simple/easy as you made it out to be.

  4. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I don't know if I can go back any further.

    I'd have to start getting into the details of dealing with that annoying ass, Rush Limbaugh.

    Back when he made that slut comment, or whatever, there was some great reporting made, possibly by NPR, but possibly by someone else, about the incredible difficulty of dealing with Rush Limbaugh for any Republican politician. He yields so much influence, because he has such a large and devoted audience, that Republican politicians, whether they want to/like to or not, have to perform a sort of awkward dance with him. Romney actually came out and made a statement distancing himself from Limbaugh over that incident, but there's only so far, as a candidate, you want to be touching on that stuff, because it will likely seriously hurt you if you get in bad graces with the man, but you also want to create genuine separation from the stupid shit he has said. In the end, it ended up tainting Romney in some sense, despite his attempt at separation, as did the retarded Akin and Murdock comments, because, well, that's largely just the nature of things. I don't completely disagree that it would be nice to be able to manage your image better wrt these things, I just don't think it's nearly as simple/easy as you made it out to be.
    Now see, I agree with this.

    I never suggested that it was sooooo easy, or that it was even entirely possible in Romney's case, at this particular time. But this is the thread about the future of the republican party, and I was merely offering a partial armchair diagnosis, IMO, as to why their campaign failed. They did allow too much of the discourse to be directed by the Limbaughs of the party. Of course, there may have been little they could have done in the way of distancing, as you say, and they certainly couldn't have controlled him directly, but where I think they could have done more was in setting up a strong, appealing counter-narrative. Not necessarily in response or direct counter to Rush's (and I'm just using him as a placeholder here, since he's not the only one), but an independent one that stood positively on its own. I don't think Romney had that, and as a result he was called a "flip-flopper" and people were complaining that they didn't know what he stood for (or, for those who didn't even watch closely, they just saw him as an avatar for the Limbaugh-esque persona.)

    Obama, as annoying as his campaign was to me (yes, I said it...it almost made me want him to lose, just for the sheer nerve of that pander-y first time ad and many others like it), was able to sell an image that people wanted. People liked what it said about them to have supported and voted for Obama, however untrue or at least exaggerated those things may really be. Romney had no such developed imaging, and so the only thing people had to latch onto was the kind of unified image that comes from people like Rush Limbaugh. For some people, that was cool. For others, it was something to ignore. And yet for others, it was something that they weren't going to have, even if they would otherwise be open to the more substantive elements of the party's platform. All we know is it wasn't enough.
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  5. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Now see, I agree with this.

    I never suggested that it was sooooo easy, or that it was even entirely possible in Romney's case, at this particular time. But this is the thread about the future of the republican party, and I was merely offering a partial armchair diagnosis, IMO, as to why their campaign failed. They did allow too much of the discourse to be directed by the Limbaughs of the party. Of course, there may have been little they could have done in the way of distancing, as you say, and they certainly couldn't have controlled him directly, but where I think they could have done more was in setting up a strong, appealing counter-narrative. Not necessarily in response or direct counter to Rush's (and I'm just using him as a placeholder here, since he's not the only one), but an independent one that stood positively on its own. I don't think Romney had that, and as a result he was called a "flip-flopper" and people were complaining that they didn't know what he stood for (or, for those who didn't even watch closely, they just saw him as an avatar for the Limbaugh-esque persona.)

    Obama, as annoying as his campaign was to me (yes, I said it...it almost made me want him to lose, just for the sheer nerve of that pander-y first time ad and many others like it), was able to sell an image that people wanted. People liked what it said about them to have supported and voted for Obama, however untrue or at least exaggerated those things may really be. Romney had no such developed imaging, and so the only thing people had to latch onto was the kind of unified image that comes from people like Rush Limbaugh. For some people, that was cool. For others, it was something to ignore. And yet for others, it was something that they weren't going to have, even if they would otherwise be open to the more substantive elements of the party's platform. All we know is it wasn't enough.
    do you still watch tv? or do you do your own research? during these times, i avoid television and do my own search, its better that way.

  6. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    They did allow too much of the discourse to be directed by the Limbaughs of the party.
    See, I just don't think they have that much control over that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Of course, there may have been little they could have done in the way of distancing, as you say, and they certainly couldn't have controlled him directly, but where I think they could have done more was in setting up a strong, appealing counter-narrative. Not necessarily in response or direct counter to Rush's (and I'm just using him as a placeholder here, since he's not the only one), but an independent one that stood positively on its own. I don't think Romney had that...
    See, I think he did have that. Or at least tried to.

    It wasn't successful enough to get him the win, but I don't think it was for lack of trying.

    If he had created something perfect -- as effective as, let's say, "It's morning in America" (of course, the ability to use that message was completely dependent upon the circumstances given Reagan in '84 [being the incumbent, in the middle of an economic recovery, country feeling more hopeful after a decade plus of malaise, war, and other ills]) -- then yes, maybe it could've gotten him enough to win, but, looking at the demographic breakdowns of who voted for whom, I mean, there are other major factors at play here that Romney was, from day one, running uphill against.

    I mean Romney wrote a book whose sole intention was to try and drive that narrative ("the incumbent doesn't believe in American exceptionalism, rightness, and greatness; well, I do, and whereas America's place in the world has suffered under my opponent's watch, I will help restore America to greatness"), and continually harked upon it in his speeches, in the debates, in commercials, etc.

    It just, for whatever reason(s), didn't work/wasn't enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    ...and as a result he was called a "flip-flopper" and people were complaining that they didn't know what he stood for...
    Well, I don't think that's why he was called a flip-flopper.

    He's been called a flip-flopper for a long time, and for pretty good reason.

    I think he's essentially a pragmatic moderate, without strong ideological convictions, so he says whatever he thinks will win him favor.

    He also had to tack far further to the right in the primaries than he really is as a person, so his tack back to the center was, once again, seen as "flip-flopping".

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    (or, for those who didn't even watch closely, they just saw him as an avatar for the Limbaugh-esque persona.)
    Yeah, I don't know here.

    I'm too close to this shit to comprehend how anyone could make such a mistake.

    I mean, I can understand it, it just seems to me like you'd have to be a fucking idiot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Obama, as annoying as his campaign was to me (yes, I said it...it almost made me want him to lose, just for the sheer nerve of that pander-y first time ad and many others like it), was able to sell an image that people wanted. People liked what it said about them to have supported and voted for Obama, however untrue or at least exaggerated those things may really be.
    Yeah, I can feel you on that one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Romney had no such developed imaging, and so the only thing people had to latch onto was the kind of unified image that comes from people like Rush Limbaugh. For some people, that was cool. For others, it was something to ignore. And yet for others, it was something that they weren't going to have, even if they would otherwise be open to the more substantive elements of the party's platform. All we know is it wasn't enough.
    I have to say, I find your tone here odd.

    If I didn't know better, I would've thought you wanted Romney to win.

    And I'm not just saying this rhetorically, cuz I really don't think you wanted Romney to win.

  7. #117
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    I'll respond again when I'm not using my phone, but I'll just say briefly to @gasoline that I'm referring to marketing and it's effects, not actual policy (and call me cynical, but I place a lot more importance during elections on the former in terms of effectiveness, for ANY party.) and @Zarathustra, no, I didn't personally want Romney to win (though I did, like an irresponsible liberal, vote for Jill Stein), but I really am not a fan of Obama or a lot of the actions he's taken while in office, and I don't think a Romney win would have been anywhere near as apocalyptic as some people make it sound. I'm just tired of Obama's rhetorical campaign (maybe reading too much Reddit is to blame for my distaste, but whatever.) Can't deny it was effective.
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    This is about the future of the party not it's past.

  9. #119
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    So far, Boehner has made some confusing, inconsistent statements about whether or not he will accept taxes in a deal, and McConnel has flatly said he won't. Actually, what McConnel has said hurts my brain. To paraphrase, he has basically said that Obama's 332 vote win, the Republicans' loss of 2 senate seats and at least 6 house seats, in a year that Republicans had long bet themselves to be the heavy favorites to takeover the government, was a message from the American people that they want the Republicans to dig their heels into their old position and demand Obama to meet their terms.

    So, talking about the future of the Republican party, we don't have a good first signal here.
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  10. #120
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    So far, Boehner has made some confusing, inconsistent statements about whether or not he will accept taxes in a deal, and McConnel has flatly said he won't. Actually, what McConnel has said hurts my brain. To paraphrase, he has basically said that Obama's 332 vote win, the Republicans' loss of 2 senate seats and at least 6 house seats, in a year that Republicans had long bet themselves to be the heavy favorites to takeover the government, was a message from the American people that they want the Republicans to dig their heels into their old position and demand Obama to meet their terms.

    So, talking about the future of the Republican party, we don't have a good first signal here.
    I think it's pretty clear that most Americans (including some Republican voters) don't buy the argument that a small tax increase for people making over $250k will slow the economy. If Obama was proposing a tax rate increase of 10% or more, I could understand the resistance, but such a minor tax rate increase is hardly radical. If this is where Republicans choose to dig in, it will cost them.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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