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  1. #21
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    Well there's a long history of splinter Christian groups becoming mainstream. Anabaptists for instance were drowned by fellow Christians because they believed in adult baptism, which is now quite a common practice. That's a far cry from the doctrinal differences with mormonism though. I can only imagine that Billy has lost his marbles and Franklin is on the take, whether it be for money or popularity or political influence. Or maybe they think that opposing abortion and gay rights by supporting someone of a completely different religion is the lesser of two evils.

    Are they actually saying mormonism is ok, or are they just supporting Romney without reference to his religion?
    Billy's 94, so he may or may not be lucid. The thing I find most out of character is that he always tried to be nonpartisan and politically neutral, I thought.

    I think Franklin is doing it for political reasons, most likely the lesser of two evils scenario you described.

    I haven't really looked into it thoroughly, but I believe Billy has said he supports Romney and I've read that his website has removed The Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints from his list of cults. I guess he's put ads in papers about moral-political issues like gay marriage and abortion.

    We'll probably never know what's really going on.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  2. #22
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    Are they actually saying mormonism is ok, or are they just supporting Romney without reference to his religion?
    They're supporting Romney without reference to his religion....just like people who supported JFK as a man and a candidate without embracing any Catholic doctrine that differed from thier own religious convictions.

    I don't really get the confusion, unless you may have bought into too much 'American Taliban' rhetoric about American Evangelicals.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    Without new immigrants, by the middle of the century the nation’s population would begin to decline, the elderly would account for nearly one in four Americans and non-Hispanic whites would remain a majority, according to new projections by the Census Bureau.

    But if immigration were to merely slow, rather than stop, non-Hispanic whites, who now account for nearly two-thirds of the population, would become a minority by 2050, according to the projections released Wednesday. If the pace of immigration increases, that benchmark could be reached as early as 2040.

    Depending on the pace of international migration, the nation’s population, currently at 308 million, could grow to as much as 458 million by midcentury, with immigrants accounting for up to 136 million of the increase.

    Since 2000, the population has been growing by just under one million immigrants annually. The bureau’s lower estimates assume a range of 1.1 million to 1.8 million; the higher estimates range from 1.5 million to 2.4 million.

    Even if no new immigrants arrived, said William H. Frey, a demographer with the Brookings Institution, the Hispanic share of the population would rise from about 14 percent in 2010 to between 21 percent (with no further immigration) and 31 percent (with the highest projected immigration) in 2050.

    Similarly, without any immigration, minorities would still constitute a majority of the population under age 5 in 2050, because of higher birth rates among Hispanic people already living here. If immigration continues, black, Hispanic and Asian children will become a majority of young children sometime between 2019 and 2023, according to the latest projections.


    What do you guys think about this? How will this change the country? What impact will this have on politics? What social/cultural change do you think this will bring about? If you live in another country how do you foresee this impacting your country's relationship with the US and/or how your personal interaction with the US and/or the US's relationship with the world/foreign policy?
    My view is that Hispanic is a meaningless term. I was born in South America and I am 6ft1 with blond hair blue eyes, not exactly the same race as a Bolivian Indian.

    Still though, I think it's a shame because mexicans already have their own country, it isn't democratic for the North Americans to become a minority in their own country as well. They need to start breeding and policing their borders. Maybe also offer money to some immigrants to return to their country?

    Please nobody think I'm being racist as you can see I grew up in the Uk from a foreign background. But I just think it's sad to lose the variety of different countries! we already have mexic and Pakistan, so their people need to develop those countries, not o make colonies out of the UK and Europe...

  4. #24
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    They're supporting Romney without reference to his religion....just like people who supported JFK as a man and a candidate without embracing any Catholic doctrine that differed from thier own religious convictions.

    I don't really get the confusion, unless you may have bought into too much 'American Taliban' rhetoric about American Evangelicals.
    My confusion came from the fact that, according to Christian doctrine, mormonism is heretical at its core, which means it doesn't lead to salvation. Given its intentional superficial similarities and therefore the likelihood of recruiting unsuspecting churchless Christians I was shocked Billy Graham would give it a stamp of legitimacy. Catholicism, while considered to have some very dodgy elements (e.g. praying to Mary and the saints), is still deemed by most protestants to be a possible path to salvation, albeit a cluttered one. So I don't understand why anglo saxon protestants would favour mormonism over catholicism.

    I'm not sure which American Taliban rhetoric you're referring to. I must've missed that.

  5. #25
    Tier 1 Member LunaLuminosity's Avatar
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    So the whole country becomes what California is now..........


    Isn't that what happens anyway?

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by LunaLuminosity View Post
    So the whole country becomes what California is now..........
    Broke?

  7. #27
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Che Parla View Post
    Still though, I think it's a shame because mexicans already have their own country, it isn't democratic for the North Americans to become a minority in their own country as well.
    The real North Americans -- i.e. Native Americans, i.e. Indians -- have been minorities in their own country for a long time. (Thought someone should bring that up at some point in this thread, if they haven't already.) If you're white, American, and think you're more American than any other US citizen, then you're either delusional or you don't know your history.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


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  8. #28
    Tier 1 Member LunaLuminosity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Broke?
    For the moment, at least.

  9. #29
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Right now*, if done properly, I think it would be enough to move Hispanics near GWB numbers (basically a mirror reflection of the current white vote), which is more than enough for a stable winning coalition favoring Republicans. In 2050, I expect that, one way or another, the political attitudes of a hispanic/anglo melting pot will merge, tending toward whichever ideological predisposition is locally and/or religiously prevalent, so contemporary cultural divides on, say, Health Care, won't be an issue.

    *By which I mean 2013-2016, of course.
    I think you're fooling yourself if you think hispanics in general don't feel marginalized by people who identify as republicans. The only exceptions to this imo would be cubans and they're often portrayed as traitors to their homeland. Hispanics vote overwhelmingly democtratic. From wikipedia:

    You really know nothing of what Hispanics care about if you think their #1 concern is immigration. With each generation Hispanics get further away from being being in contact with a first generation immigrant. In fact many Hispanics even in California want to deny social services to illegal immigrants. However, they are still overwhelmingly democratic especially Mexicans who comprise over 60% of Hispanics in America. One of the biggest concerns is lack of access to the higher education system because of a whole host of obstacles that impact Hispanic communities disproportionately. I think you're kidding yourself if you think religion is going to be a benefit to the Republican party because access to education and health services (that Republicans largely oppose) are also seen as -moral- issues.
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  10. #30
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