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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    It's not the joke that made me say INTJ, it's your reaction to my reaction of that joke.
    That makes more sense... I didn't think about typological reaction to that. Cool.

  2. #32
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    The world could do with some more Amsterdam mentality.

    I don't see an issue with crossgender nakedness.

    I assume he's not tea-bagging people in the sauna or something, that ofcourse would be wrong. For obvious reasons. There are always lines that should not be crossed. But not wearing clothes should not be one of the lines that can't be crossed.
    I feel exactly the way you do. Americans are so prude it disgusts me.. The very idea of any naked body being a shameful or ugly thing is repulsive to me. I don't know how people can see something, even something they weren't expecting, and think anything even remotely close to shock or disgust. No, I don't want to see my parents naked, but if I walk into the bathroom not knowing my father's in there it isn't going to shock me or damage me in any way. "Oops! sorry!" No, I don't want to see a naked *anything* in a sauna if I'm in it because I'm not there to see naked people, but if I do, no big deal. I think if we did less separating of genders in our lives we'd have less stress all around. We separate ourselves to the point where that's all we know how to do.

    BUT! Since the majority of America does not think this way, I feel that the transgender shouldn't be excluded at all from the sauna. But I think that it should be politely requested by the facility that pre-op genders at least keep the genitalia covered during their stay as a courtesy to younger girls and children. Despite what I've been educated on, my assumption is going to be that if a woman exposes her penis in public.. she's not really exposing herself as a woman. I have no problems seeing a transgender pre-op naked, but I think I would have a problem with my 6 year old daughter seeing a penis in an all-girls facility because I'm probably not educating her on the complex situation of transgenders at the age of 6. Post-op should have full rights to naked-sweaty-sauna-times.

    The pre-op transgenders should have the courtesy of covering the genitalia for children's sake. If no children were in the facility I'd tell the adults to gtf over it. But I don't think that anyone legally recognized as female should be turned away from a female facility just because people get offended and don't agree. That's retarded.
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  3. #33
    Tier 1 Member LunaLuminosity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    ...which is why I have alwayd been a big fan of idividual booths (for everybody )
    This needs to happen as soon as possible.......I'm sure it's not that costly of a thing for everywhere to start transitioning.


    Eh, until then, just make a blanket rule that opposite sex parts can't be in clear view, to keep this from starting yet another storm (as is likely, since it involves the kiddies).


    I wouldn't think anyone would be so bold (and shameless xD )as to break this pretty big unwritten rule, but since it happened....

  4. #34
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    The sex however at its core is genetic and is defined by whether or not you have a Y chromosome. XX=female, XY, male, XYY= male, XXX= female, etc. You can be a genetic (sex) and social (gender) male without a fully developed penis (which could be underdeveloped due to some gene defect or maybe it was amputated or whatever)
    As part of a purely hypothetical argument, I'd differ about that as well, because genetics are only blueprints and not necessarily the reality. It's like handing blueprints for a Cape Cod to the builder, and the builder spills coffee on the blueprints and/or otherwise damages them (or maybe even just ignores them), and builds a rancher instead... or some mixture of two different house styles.

    Would it make sense at that point to say that the house is a "Cape Cod?" No. The blueprints designated it to be a Cape Cod, but it turned out in reality to not be a Cape Cod. It is something else.

    This is the flaw in using the "genetic argument," as genetics do not create the derivation in physical/chemical gender. The XY/XX chromosome has a plan that might or might be thwarted for MANY different reasons (perhaps due to other conflicting genetics, or environment factors such as the hormone state/chemical makeup of the mother's blood, etc.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  5. #35
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I feel exactly the way you do. Americans are so prude it disgusts me.. The very idea of any naked body being a shameful or ugly thing is repulsive to me. I don't know how people can see something, even something they weren't expecting, and think anything even remotely close to shock or disgust. No, I don't want to see my parents naked, but if I walk into the bathroom not knowing my father's in there it isn't going to shock me or damage me in any way. "Oops! sorry!" No, I don't want to see a naked *anything* in a sauna if I'm in it because I'm not there to see naked people, but if I do, no big deal. I think if we did less separating of genders in our lives we'd have less stress all around. We separate ourselves to the point where that's all we know how to do.

    BUT! Since the majority of America does not think this way, I feel that the transgender shouldn't be excluded at all from the sauna. But I think that it should be politely requested by the facility that pre-op genders at least keep the genitalia covered during their stay as a courtesy to younger girls and children. Despite what I've been educated on, my assumption is going to be that if a woman exposes her penis in public.. she's not really exposing herself as a woman. I have no problems seeing a transgender pre-op naked, but I think I would have a problem with my 6 year old daughter seeing a penis in an all-girls facility because I'm probably not educating her on the complex situation of transgenders at the age of 6. Post-op should have full rights to naked-sweaty-sauna-times.

    The pre-op transgenders should have the courtesy of covering the genitalia for children's sake. If no children were in the facility I'd tell the adults to gtf over it. But I don't think that anyone legally recognized as female should be turned away from a female facility just because people get offended and don't agree. That's retarded.
    Fair point about children. It surely is not a subject one would eagerly want to explain to a six year old.

    Then again, children are probably more understanding then most adults about those things and have a much easier time reaching those understandings. They do not yet have those pesky little buggers called prejudices after all. Just being curious here and perhaps I go to far with this, but what is stopping you from explaining this to your child. Your child ability to understand, or your own prejudices?

    Ofcourse, had I been a transgender woman, I would cover up my bits in such cases just by using my own common sense. Children are still children after all.

    But something should also be said about the situation where no children are involved. I probably would want to be and feel myself when there are only adults around. To be accepted for who I am, regardless of my peculiar situation down south. If I was 'forced' to always cover up, whilest others do not. That would probably cause me to feel my freedom is being limited. I would prefer to live in an aware society that accepts me for who I am and allows me to be 'as free as they are'.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    But something should also be said about the situation where no children are involved. I probably would want to be and feel myself when there are only adults around. To be accepted for who I am, regardless of my peculiar situation down south. If I was 'forced' to always cover up, whilest others do not. That would probably cause me to feel my freedom is being limited. I would prefer to live in an aware society that accepts me for who I am and allows me to be 'as free as they are'.
    Where are you at again, Finland? Oh, yeah, Netherlands.

    "WHere the heck did this exodus of transpeople come from?"

    "Oh. THat's fluffywolf's fault."
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #37
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Where are you at again, Finland? Oh, yeah, Netherlands.

    "WHere the heck did this exodus of transpeople come from?"

    "Oh. THat's fluffywolf's fault."
    "Ze plan, it iz working. Zoon ze whole wide world will be zingle gendered! Muhahahahaaahaha!"


    (The fake french accent is a ruse to lay blame on the french. Monty Python style.)
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  8. #38
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    Fair point about children. It surely is not a subject one would eagerly want to explain to a six year old.

    Then again, children are probably more understanding then most adults about those things and have a much easier time reaching those understandings. They do not yet have those pesky little buggers called prejudices after all. Just being curious here and perhaps I go to far with this, but what is stopping you from explaining this to your child. Your child ability to understand, or your own prejudices?
    A fair argument to be made.. but it's impossible to tell how a child will react to a situation. I know, as a kid, I would probably have been curious and maybe a bit rude by openly asking or pointing out the issue to my parent. My sister, however, was the sort that would never say anything even though a situation made her uncomfortable or scared her. Some children get shocked, scared, and damaged easily for some reason.. while others seem limitless, strong, and curious. Better to let the parents decide what a child should see or not.. If a child was raised seeing both genders in the nude, that may be one thing, but that really never happens in America, nor will it anytime soon.

    But something should also be said about the situation where no children are involved. I probably would want to be and feel myself when there are only adults around. To be accepted for who I am, regardless of my peculiar situation down south. If I was 'forced' to always cover up, whilest others do not. That would probably cause me to feel my freedom is being limited. I would prefer to live in an aware society that accepts me for who I am and allows me to be 'as free as they are'.
    Absolutely agreed. There's enough for transgenders to go through without the public being allowed to treat them like they're icky.
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  9. #39
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    I'd be a little bit concerned about creeper men pretending to be trans and exposing themselves to all the women in the room. But at the same time, I recognize that that would very rarely occur, were locker room policies changed to allow for trans use of locker rooms -- wouldn't be much more likely to happen, than it currently is. And I think administrators/cops/whoever are smart enough to know the difference between fake trans people and real ones, in those situations. Kind of like the fear of people pretending to be gay for the marriage benefits -- which is not something I worry about, but does sound a bit similar to the locker room worry I just mentioned.

    What I mean is... that's probably an irrational fear.

    Also I agree with @kyuuei, @Fluffywolf, and @Red Herring, re: individual booths and little children.
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  10. #40
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Well crap. I guess I'm more of a prude than I thought. I'm fine with seeing my husband's genitals as long as there isn't anyone that isn't a medical professional in the room with us. Otherwise, I think people need to keep their genitals put away. This is understandably more difficult with man parts, so I guess I'm on team Individual Booths for Everybody. I don't discriminate, man, woman, trans -- your junk is icky and I don't want to see it. I will keep mine put away too, as common courtesy dictates. We can all be repressed like God intended.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

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