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  1. #11
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moniker View Post
    I concur. How does the law discern who is identified as a female? If a transgendered woman has male genitalia, small or no breasts and short hair, but claims to be a female, where is the line drawn?
    Well, to answer that question: Gender recognition depends on state, which control driver license IDs. Some states allow one to be legally male or female regardless of genitalia, if they fulfill the requirements (which typically involve having a doctor or other medical representative confirm that the person is living full-time in the designated gender and has made medical steps -- such as consistent hormone use -- that aligns with that).

    Birth certificates are a different matter; a few states do not allow one to change the birth certificate, many other states will allow after surgery and an official document from the surgeon a new certificate to be drawn up with the new gender, while the old BC is sealed.

    EDIT: In my brief search online, it looks like as of 2007, you could change your legal gender in Washington state by filling out the correct form, providing info/copy of current license, and (the biggie) getting a letter from a medical doctor (NOT a therapist) stating that you are under treatment for GID and that the change is medically related. I suspect a psychiatrist letter (i.e., some kind of doctor who can prescribe medication) is also permitted; but most states, as far as I know, do not accept mere therapist/counselor letters. It has to be someone relevant who can prescribe and holds a doctorate.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moniker View Post
    I concur. How does the law discern who is identified as a female? If a transgendered woman has male genitalia, small or no breasts and short hair, but claims to be a female, where is the line drawn?
    The reality is, he is not a female. He's a transvestite - a male pretending to be a female for whatever reason. How does the law discern someone identifying as a horse?

    The point is, it's not a real female and he shouldn't flash his junk in a female locker room.

  3. #13
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typoz View Post
    The reality is, he is not a female. He's a transvestite - a male pretending to be a female for whatever reason. How does the law discern someone identifying as a horse?
    Going by standard definitions, a transvestite is someone in one gender who dresses in the clothing of another gender, usually for sexual kicks, and doesn't necessarily identify as the other gender. (For example, a guy who likes to wear lacy undergarments but still totally has a male identity would be a transvestite.) Drag queens are yet ANOTHER category (they typically enjoy presenting at least part of the time as glammed-up females but often have a gay male identity). Transsexuals fit neither of these categorizations.

    Technically, if the rules work as they do, this person should have been screened to not be a transvestite nor a drag queen.

    As far as I know, there is no common group of people who identify as horses, although I suppose there is one here and there who might. I've never run across them. There also is no known biological/development pathway for someone to identify as a horse; however, it's very clear from decades of medical study that there are known biological and hormonal pathways during development that can contribute to both sexual preference-variant as well as gender-variant behavior, so it's not as "crazy" as you are making it out to be. One in 500 babies is born with an intersexed condition/androgynous genitalia, for example.

    Your first post was rather superfluous/out of place for this subforum, and this one seems misinformed. Unless you have information no one else in this thread has about this person's treatment, it sounds to me like you just don't really understand what is being discussed here.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #14
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    Life sure must be easy and cosy on a few planets.





    Sidenote: There is a big difference between a transsexual and a transvestite.
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  5. #15
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    I look at this and can only really think of one thing.

    Stop discriminating between males and females and make everything cross-gender, no gender based locker rooms or sauna's anymore, mix everything up. Put every male, female, transgender or any other kind of gender in the same room and voila. Everyone wins!

    I used to take baths with my sister when I was like 3 years old. But soon thereafter my mother had split us up. As a result I had to go after my sister. Complaining that the water had gone cold, I asked my mother why we could not go together again and was met with a seemingly simple answer. "It is not appropiate.". I obliged like a good son and feigned complete understanding, but admittedly, to this day, I still don't know the exact meaning of that answer.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  6. #16
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    @Jennifer

    Transsexual: "A person born with the physical characteristics of one sex who emotionally and psychologically feels that they belong to the opposite sex."
    Transvestite: "A person, typically a man, who derives pleasure from dressing in clothes appropriate to the opposite sex."
    Transgender: "Identified with a gender other than the biological one."
    Crossdresser: "Cross-dressing is the wearing of clothing and other accoutrement commonly associated with a gender within a particular society that is seen as different than the one usually presented by the dresser"

    So, a dress and a wish to be a female doesn't mean that you're one. It means that you're a male dressed as a female with fake tits and/or after hormone therapy, thinking that you're a female. You still have a penis, which, being a genitalia, is the distinguishable characteristic of your gender, which means that you're a male.

    I don't think that transvestites should flash tits in the male locker room nor flash junk in the female locker room. As I see it, there should be a special booth in a female locker room due to the supposed appearance as a female, which is where the transvestite should go to change.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Typoz View Post
    So, a dress and a wish to be a female doesn't mean that you're one. It means that you're a male dressed as a female with fake tits and/or after hormone therapy, thinking that you're a female. You still have a penis, which, being a genitalia, is the distinguishable characteristic of your gender, which means that you're a male.
    .
    Sorry, but that is factually wrong. Also, why do you keep talking about transvestites when the OP and the entire thread is about transsexuals and you yourself just quoted the difference?????????
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  8. #18
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    I think different laws should apply to pre-op and post-op transexuals in such situations....and I sympathize with the hassle and discomfort restrictive access causes pre-ops during what must already be a very difficult time for them, but I think protecting little girls (and non-consenting grown women) from public exposure to masculine genitalia (or possibly worse) takes precedence.
    Your comments probably most closely mirror my thoughts.

    I think the ruling and locker room use is fine. However, I see it as a situation that demands empathy on both sides, and in this case I think a more DADT approach is appropriate (since we're not talking employment or marriage, just use of a particular facility).

    1. There is no way to distinguish a pre-op from a post-op without an actual genitalia check, since one can get their gender flag changed pre-op in many states in this country now. This is where DADT comes in; there shouldn't be any reason to check genitalia, unless someone has been waving theirs around.

    2. There are safety issues and problems with having pre-ops who otherwise pass changing in their old gender's bathroom. And transsexuals are not a crime hazard to women. Also, I'm not sure why a pre-op, who typically is disturbed by how his or her body does not look the way they think it should, would want to present that source of emotional pain to strangers in a public facility.

    3. Young girls (let alone women) in a women's changing facility do not need to be subjected to male genitalia regardless; not only can it be disturbing for them, but for young children it can broach topics unexpectedly in areas where the parent has not yet laid a proper foundation to have that discussion with the child. We don't have men waving penises around in typical family situations, even innocently, so why is it appropriate here? I remember when my father used to walk around all the time in the house with his bathrobe hanging open all the time when I was growing up; it disgusted me, and my ISFJ sister took great offense/was severely bothered by this, and yet he refused to change his behavior even when everyone else in the family (including my mother) asked him to please stop and take more care.

    IMO, it's very easy to install a private stall for use by ANYONE, for any reason. Just have some curtains up on a toilet stall, for goodness sake, if that's what it comes down to. And at that point, we're at DADT -- no one needs to know what is between your legs. People don't need to pry/ask; and people who are different don't need to parade that difference about; and everyone gets what they want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Typoz View Post
    So, a dress and a wish to be a female doesn't mean that you're one. It means that you're a male dressed as a female with fake tits and/or after hormone therapy, thinking that you're a female. You still have a penis, which, being a genitalia, is the distinguishable characteristic of your gender, which means that you're a male.
    So a guy with his penis shot off (or removed because he had penile cancer) is no longer a male.

    Thanks for clarifying that.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  9. #19
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    @Red Herring - As far as I'm concerned, this is a black and white issue. Just don't let the chick expose her penis in front of everyone.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typoz View Post
    You still have a penis, which, being a genitalia, is the distinguishable characteristic of your gender, which means that you're a male.
    Wrong. And here's why:

    There is a difference between gender and sex. Your gender has nothing to do with your body, it is a social construct and all about what social and psychological role you identify with. I assume you meant to say sex when you said gender.

    The sex however at its core is genetic and is defined by whether or not you have a Y chromosome. XX=female, XY, male, XYY= male, XXX= female, etc. You can be a genetic (sex) and social (gender) male without a fully developed penis (which could be underdeveloped due to some gene defect or maybe it was amputated or whatever)
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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