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  1. #91
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    You just don't get it. It's more complicated than just Romney should be as nice and swell as possible. The most important part of a campaign is comparing and contrasting yourself to your opponent. If Romney goes to NY it's impossible for him to have a favorable contrast to Obama. Under those circumstances he can't attack Obama and the very fact that Obama is president makes it far too easy for Obama to overshadow Romney. What's Romney going to do? Light a candle? Say a prayer? Donate a million dollars? That's nothing compared to FEMA and Obama's leather bomber jacket. Even if there is a chance of out shining Obama the risk of going is just to high. Since Romney stayed in Ohio he's been able to stay on message with the voters that matter most and has been able to continue to attack Obama at local speeches drawing the contrast he wants while all the news shows are talking about how much Chris Christie loves Obama.

    I get it. You're not impressed with his actions. That's fine. At this point I doubt Romney really cares about your opinion as you don't live in Ohio.
    Ad hominem, considering Ohio is just one of the several battleground states.

    But he has done quite a bit in Ohio, that is for sure.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    People like him don't even need to change. Republicans are dying off at a greater rate than they are breeding. The writing is on the wall for the Republican party. Unless it turns around and becomes less extreme (not going to happen), it will be irrelevant, nationally, in around 20 years.
    Parties evolve.

    So will the Republican party.

    That is the nature of things.

    EDIT: then again, I've been calling for the libertarians as a third party for a long time now...

  3. #93
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post



    Parties evolve.

    So will the Republican party.

    That is the nature of things.

    EDIT: then again, I've been calling for the libertarians as a third party for a long time now...
    Parties do evolve, but some parties are dissolved, like the Whig party. There is no guarantee that the Republican party will continue to exist. The extreme elements of the Republican party will never compromise because it's based in religion and compromising would put their immortal souls at risk.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Parties do evolve, but some parties are dissolved, like the Whig party. There is no guarantee that the Republican party will continue to exist. The extreme elements of the Republican party will never compromise because it's based in religion and compromising would put their immortal souls at risk.
    Yeah, and I understand that, and actually agree with you, which is why I've actually been predicting that libertarians would rise as a third party sometime around 2016-2020, for a long while now, but, well, honestly, I just don't know if I see it happening anymore. The uneasy alliance between libertarians and conservatives that has made up the Republican party for a long while now is, well, just that: uneasy. If Romney loses, which is seeming more and more likely to me at this point, I don't see how, barring a heart attack, Chris Christie won't win the nomination in 2016. If he does, that will be three moderates in a row that the party will have nominated, and Christie will have been the best pick of all of them. Frankly, I think he'd win, and, if he were to win a second term, I don't see how his moderate temperament wouldn't have a very strong impact on the party's future. I mean, honestly, he's the kind of guy who will straight tell it to the religious wackos' faces that their ideas are obsolete and will only serve to hold the party back.

    At that point, enough of them will learn to moderate their politics, and/or the crazy ones will form some hopeless religious wacko break-off party, essentially leaving the Republican party a far more centrist, far more libertarian party than it was before.

    / being this guy

  5. #95
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Yeah, and I understand that, and actually agree with you, which is why I've actually been predicting that libertarians would rise as a third party sometime around 2016-2020, for a long while now, but, well, honestly, I just don't know if I see it happening anymore. The uneasy alliance between libertarians and conservatives that has made up the Republican party for a long while now is, well, just that: uneasy. If Romney loses, which is seeming more and more likely to me at this point, I don't see how, barring a heart attack, Chris Christie won't win the nomination in 2016. If he does, that will be three moderates in a row that the party will have nominated, and Christie will have been the best pick of all of them. Frankly, I think he'd win, and, if he were to win again, I don't see how his moderate temperament wouldn't have a very strong impact on the party's future. I mean, honestly, he's the kind of guy who will straight tell it to the religious wackos' faces that their ideas are obsolete and will only serve to hold the party back.

    At that point, enough of them will learn to moderate their politics, and/or the crazy ones will form some hopeless religious wacko break-off party, essentially leaving the Republican party a far more centrist, far more libertarian party than it was before.

    / being this guy
    The scenario you describe is one of the few (maybe the only) scenarios where the Republican party could avoid declining into irrelevance. It's a really long shot that things would actually play out that way. There's already talk of Ryan running in 2016 (and he's not a moderate), and you know some other nutcases like Bachmann are going to run. Maybe Pat Robertson would run again, or someone like Joel Osteen.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #96
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Ad Hominem


    Besides that, test me. In those bolded parts and those two sentences alone, you'd probably can extrapolate a lot about what I said.

  7. #97
    Feline Member kelric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I don't see how, barring a heart attack, Chris Christie won't win the nomination in 2016. If he does, that will be three moderates in a row that the party will have nominated, and Christie will have been the best pick of all of them. Frankly, I think he'd win, and, if he were to win again, I don't see how his moderate temperament wouldn't have a very strong impact on the party's future. I mean, honestly, he's the kind of guy who will straight tell it to the religious wackos' faces that their ideas are obsolete and will only serve to hold the party back.
    I agree that Christie seems to be more solidly moderate than most of the folks who've been involved in the Republican primaries, etc. this year (I've also heard it proposed that the actual electable candidates from the Republican side, including Christie, intentionally sat out for 2012 for 2016, when they won't have an incumbent to deal with). But do you really think he'll be able to tell the religious base of his party that "their ideas are obsolete and will only serve to hold the party back"? Personally, I believe that statement to be true - and I could believe that Christie does too... but, pragmatically, could he do it without submarining his hope of being elected?

    I'm not a Romney fan - never have been, and he's legitimately getting criticized for his "say anything to get elected" stance and going against things he once championed, or at least accepted as Governor, in order to appeal to his party's base. But... he needs those voters' support to have a chance, and he knows it. How would that be substantially different for Christie (or another Republican nominee) in 2016?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    The scenario you describe is one of the few (maybe the only) scenarios where the Republican party could avoid declining into irrelevance. It's a really long shot that things would actually play out that way. There's already talk of Ryan running in 2016 (and he's not a moderate), and you know some other nutcases like Bachmann are going to run. Maybe Pat Robertson would run again, or someone like Joel Osteen.
    Ryan is the only one that could even challenge Christie.

    And, frankly, he'd lose.

    Quote Originally Posted by kelric View Post
    I agree that Christie seems to be more solidly moderate than most of the folks who've been involved in the Republican primaries, etc. this year (I've also heard it proposed that the actual electable candidates from the Republican side, including Christie, intentionally sat out for 2012 for 2016, when they won't have an incumbent to deal with). But do you really think he'll be able to tell the religious base of his party that "their ideas are obsolete and will only serve to hold the party back"? Personally, I believe that statement to be true - and I could believe that Christie does too... but, pragmatically, could he do it without submarining his hope of being elected?
    He wouldn't have to.

    He could do it after.

    But, regardless, assuming he did get stuck in that conundrum, honestly, I think he could pull it off.

    It might not be as blunt as I put it, but he'd say something that gets the point across.

    The man's got a way with words: he can both forceful, and empathetic.

    Quote Originally Posted by kelric View Post
    I'm not a Romney fan - never have been, and he's legitimately getting criticized for his "say anything to get elected" stance and going against things he once championed, or at least accepted as Governor, in order to appeal to his party's base. But... he needs those voters' support to have a chance, and he knows it. How would that be substantially different for Christie (or another Republican nominee) in 2016?
    Christie's made of very different stuff than Romney.

    They're both moderates, but Romney is always hiding, while Christie puts himself right out there.

    To be honest, it probably has a lot to do with Romney's religion and Christie being a big old fat dude.

    His honesty -- exactly what everyone is complaining is lacking in Romney -- is what makes Christie so beloved.

    It's that same honesty that would be willing to tell the religious nuts to go fuck themselves if they were hurting the party.

  9. #99
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Ryan is the only one that could even challenge Christie.

    And, frankly, he'd lose.
    Given the nature of the caucuses and the primaries I really think Rand has a decent shot against Christie. He has the organization already in place in Iowa to pull a first or second position and I don't think he would fall farther than 3rd in NH. With any luck Santorum and other strong socons would be out by the time they swing south and with endorsements from Demint and possibly Akin and Mourdock (if they pull upsets and return the favor for his PAC's backing of their campaigns) Rand could have that wing of the party in his favor.

    Of course Christie will probably have LOTS more money and could win in the long haul, but you never know once the race gets that far along.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Given the nature of the caucuses and the primaries I really think Rand has a decent shot against Christie. He has the organization already in place in Iowa to pull a first or second position and I don't think he would fall farther than 3rd in NH. With any luck Santorum and other strong socons would be out by the time they swing south and with endorsements from Demint and possibly Akin and Mourdock (if they pull upsets and return the favor for his PAC's backing of their campaigns) Rand could have that wing of the party in his favor.

    Of course Christie will probably have LOTS more money and could win in the long haul, but you never know once the race gets that far along.
    You're talking about Rand Paul?

    Yeah, I guess you could throw him in there with Ryan and Christie.

    I watched his speech from the convention, though; I don't really think he's got it.

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