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View Poll Results: Non-Americans, who would you vote for?

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  1. #41
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    ...far be it from me to suggest Europe as an example, as we sure as hell have our own problems but perhaps on health care, it can function as one?
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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    I don't think this is a question of geographic isolation - just look at a place like New Zealand - doesn't get more isolated than that. Yet they are culturally very open and progressive.
    Good example. Although I don't think it would just be that aspect (geography), it's a number of influences working in tandem.

    We did have influx of various nationalities for a long time, but capitalism seems to be more the umbrella identity. The small fiefdoms of people protecting their own regions is very uneasy when new nationalities move into the area. (Basically, sure, let them come over... but don't have them live near me.)

    An older single gay male I know with his own house in a quiet, moderate/conservative suburb, told me that he was bogeyman when he moved in.... until the black Ethiopian family moved in nearby. Suddenly people stopped fretting about him; at least he was white and had his own business and looked like everyone else; the new family was the problem du jour.

    Ok. But look at other superpowers. Look at the British Empire or an even better example - the Roman Empire. All about assimilation, integration, picking up the best ideas from all over and refining them into something greater than the sum of its parts..
    Well, the Roman empire fell (oversimplified, but) because it was held together by 1-2 people who then died and because it expanded quickly. And Britain's no longer a power per se. But I do think it ties into what you say next..

    I think maybe some of it is the Puritan heritage, and some of it is that frontier, land grab, take no prisoners mentality. It's really a kind of wagon-circling fearfulness.
    Yes, I think that really plays into it. I consider us a dichotomy -- on one hand we have "freedom of speech/press" and on the other hand there's still a lot of underlying "we're special, we're the top, and we know better than others," that makes us resistant and even suspicious of other ways of thinking. The Tea Party thing is just one of the more extreme expressions of it. But conservative religion and patriotism are wed in this country.

    I think maybe that's at the heart of the (to us, absurd) patriotism and reluctance to countenance any criticism of Uncle Sam. It's like you guys feel like maybe you don't legitimately belong there, or anywhere, so you overcompensate with all the bluster and "God bless the greatest nation on earth" bs. Maybe.
    Well, I think a lot of the people that talk about "America being the greatest" actually believe it. I think it's kind of a naive approach, there are some strong benefits to living in this country as compared to some other countries in the world, and yet we have our own set of unique problems in part even because of those strengths. It's similar elsewhere as well, to varying levels.

    I also think we need to get used to the idea that we are no longer rising and developing in our life cycle -- we're kind of done with the wild growth phase in terms of economy and prestige and eventually we'll be on a decline if we're not already. Nations are organisms that way. Perhaps it can cycle back around, but it's just how the process works. And because of that, we'd better find other ways to interact with the rest of the world since just barreling through as if we own the place is only going to get harder and less effective. The big tough influential guy at the international pub has to find a different way to interact once he gets older.
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  3. #43
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Much of America has been convinced that national health care will somehow be more expensive. They've also been convinced that they will have to deal with long delays in getting treatment, sometimes critical treatment, that the overall standard of treatment will be poorer, and that they will be both denied access to certain kinds of medical care

    You know and I know that this is pure bullshit, not even derived from fact.
    Meh. Some of it has a bit of truth. Our NHS is a breeding ground for inefficiency, incompetence and extravagance. Not to mention MRSA. But I wouldn't be without it.

    One other thing to add is that some of the fight goes over what's covered. If birth control, abortion, anything having to do with sex change operations, any kind of therapy that affirms being gay, or something possibly linked to embryonic stem cell usage is supported by a national health care system, there are many Americans who will oppose it for facilitating something immoral.
    Crap. That's scary. When will you people learn to separate Church and State?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    An older single gay male I know with his own house in a quiet, moderate/conservative suburb, told me that he was bogeyman when he moved in.... until the black Ethiopian family moved in nearby. Suddenly people stopped fretting about him; at least he was white and had his own business and looked like everyone else; the new family was the problem du jour.
    This actually has some logic to it, in a crazy, fucked up way. It's like a kind of siege mentality left over from colonial times. How to identify friend from foe in a foreign land full of hostiles? Pick the dude that most resembles you.
    Well, the Roman empire fell (oversimplified, but) because it was held together by 1-2 people who then died and because it expanded quickly. And Britain's no longer a power per se.
    Oh, Empire is well and truly dead, no question. All empires fall, eventually. I was just inferring that it was possible to be a global superpower and not be retarded about other cultures. Not that I'm saying raping, pillaging, plundering and enslaving have much going for them either...

    Well, I think a lot of the people that talk about "America being the greatest" actually believe it.
    I'm sure they do. It's a conscious belief that compensates for an unconscious insecurity. Which emerges in other ways too - like the preoccupation with identifying European "roots", for example.
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  4. #44
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Meh. Some of it has a bit of truth. Our NHS is a breeding ground for inefficiency, incompetence and extravagance. Not to mention MRSA. But I wouldn't be without it.
    A bit of truth, perhaps. It's highly inflated in our political discourse. I myself would prefer the British model over the USA's current health system but consider it my least favorite approach to NHS. I think much of the criticism leveled at NHS has virtually no basis at all if we talk about a system more like Japan and Germany's, or Canada's and Taiwan's.

    EDIT: I should clarify, since it probably looks like I just contradicted myself. I think that if we talk specifically about a model like the British one, there is perhaps a bit of truth to the negative claims about NHS. It is however pure bullshit to say those negative things are going to happen with NHS, because there are ways of doing NHS that I don't think really have those problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Crap. That's scary. When will you people learn to separate Church and State?
    I know this is a trite comparison, but think of the Muslim Arab nations. For someone who actually believes in these religious truths, the separation of church and state seems as silly as the separation of the laws of physics and state. It is an all encompassing fact of life that you can not and must not attempt to cut out of your decisions, particularly not the most important ones like the rule of the government.
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  5. #45
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    What does Obama do about healthcare so that he's better than Romney?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Typoz View Post
    What does Obama do about healthcare so that he's better than Romney?
    Besides coming up with the template for the ACA?

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Besides coming up with the template for the ACA?
    Basically I'm asking because I'm too lazy to read 10 huge articles about it. I don't even know what's ACA.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by DisneyGeek View Post
    Anyone who is a fan of people's rights is good with me.
    Btw, for me it wasn't a matter of people's rights. Point is people who are willing to use religious beliefs as an excuse to act illogically/ inconsiderately / inflexibly are a huge liability.

  9. #49
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    The Affordable Care Act, also known as Obamacare.

    It's based on a system Romney implemented in Massachusetts in 2006.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    The Affordable Care Act, also known as Obamacare.

    It's based on a system Romney implemented in Massachusetts in 2006.
    Well asked an American who's in my contacts. Said it's good for the poor people.

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