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View Poll Results: Non-Americans, who would you vote for?

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31. You may not vote on this poll
  • Romney

    1 3.23%
  • Obama

    30 96.77%
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  1. #11
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    The general consensus in half of America is that the Republican Party is insane.

    Trust me when I say there are those of us who would prefer to kick the abusive spouse to the curb and have our neighbors there for support.

  2. #12
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    The general consensus in half of America is that the Republican Party is insane. Trust me when I say there are those of us who would prefer to kick the abusive spouse to the curb and have our neighbors there for support.
    Agreed.

    ...then again...

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Well, I think it goes both ways; don't want others to care about your politics, don't do things like attack, socially engineer revolts and otherwise deeply interfere with other countries.

    I'll use a pretty harsh, but strangely telling (in terms of outside perception), analogy. The house next door to you has an abusive spouse*, but when anyone interferes, both spouses say to leave them alone. No one likes it, but it's the way it is. But things escalate, and now they are throwing things and breaking other people's windows. Saying "leave us alone" doesn't mean nearly so much. This isn't a small social cost, it's a direct and physical impact.
    The USA is deeply sorry for invading Canada and trampling on its daisies and leaving it superfluous in the rest of the world. I know it must be a pain being located next to us. But at least you beat us regularly in hockey.

    * Using abuse may seem hyperbolic, but I would say it understates the moral underpinings.
    No, I believe you were correct with the term "hyperbolic."

    The health care system, for instance, causes deaths. I would outright say it is an immoral system, one in which people are trapped without recourse in your system (given low income mobility, etc.) I'd go as far as to say that "classism" in the US borders on nearly equivalent abuse.
    This has little to do with people in France voting for the President of the United States, which is what I was commenting on. And unfortunately, the entire economy is currently a rat's nest and electrician's nightmare, where when you adjust one wire or detach/reattach it, you run the risk of not just fubaring the entire system but also burning down your house, resulting in far more mayhem and destruction than what you're complaining about. It's like completely gutting and rebuilding your ship while you are riding in it in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean during a tempest.

    If it was that simple to fix and/or if the issues were isolated rather than interwoven, it would already be fixed.

    I don't feel as strongly (I stand behind what I said but the depth of my feelings on it is pretty shallow) as what I say above, but it may help get a feel of external perception.
    For most of the people commenting on this thread, I think it's extremely hyperbolic especially considering how WORSE everything would become if this ridiculous notion of the rest of the world with no direct responsibility voting for national US leaders was implemented.

    It's why I can't cast my vote for the Arizona governor, or a school district halfway across my state -- why should I be allowed to directly influence something that either only indirectly influences me or barely influences me, without any responsibility for making a good decision nor the information and context I need to make a good decision. And the potential for abuse is enormous.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  3. #13
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  4. #14
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    The USA is deeply sorry for invading Canada and trampling on its daisies and leaving it superfluous in the rest of the world.
    *shrug* I'm not a flower person anyway. Pax Americana has been good for me. I'd probably have moral qualms about sending Americans off to die for my peace so I'm quite happy not having a choice in the matter.

    I don't think others should vote in American elections either. Influence is not the reason why, for me, tyranny of majority is. Americans vote for American interests.

  5. #15
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    The general consensus in half of America is that the Republican Party is insane.

    Trust me when I say there are those of us who would prefer to kick the abusive spouse to the curb and have our neighbors there for support.
    Pretty much, yeah. The divide is rather bizarre. I've got a conservative friend who I can spend hours around- yet the moment I start picking her brain about why she's so far right... . One thing I can't get over is how she can't seem to separate religion from state, like having a state that doesn't reflect her values is 'imposing other values on her'.....and no amount of trying to explain "I'm not saying the state should reflect MY values, I'm saying the state should give the freedom to let everyone practice their own", but it just goes in one ear and out the other. I suppose when your own goal is to impose your own values on everyone else- without even realizing you're doing it, just seeing them as 'the right values' whether other people know it or not- then that's all you're going to see in other people as well. It's really scary though how thick this mentality seems to be, the "it's them or us- either we make them live by our values (and we get into Heaven) or they make us live by theirs (and they bring us all to Hell with them!!1!)!" mindset.

    I mean, there are other aspects of the right that seem nuts to me too, but this inability to separate church from state is really menacing to me. eta: That Bachman and Santorum made it as far as they did is truly stunning to me.
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  6. #16
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    *shrug* I'm not a flower person anyway. Pax Americana has been good for me. I'd probably have moral qualms about sending Americans off to die for my peace so I'm quite happy not having a choice in the matter.
    I'm thinking part of the problem is that we haven't been sending our kids off to die. I've heard a lot of complaints about the "drones" lately, where we can bomb the crap out of things with little/no risk to our own soldiers while causing damage to infrastructure (i.e., city buildings) as well as bystanders. If anything pisses off a foreign country against us, I'd guess that would contribute.

    I don't think others should vote in American elections either. Influence is not the reason why, for me, tyranny of majority is. Americans vote for American interests.
    Everyone votes for their own interests.

    But it's not like everyone in the US is hawkish. Most of the people I know are wondering why the hell we're still overseas. The average person here is actually rather isolationist -- kind of pulled back into one's own small world and not wanting anyone to mess with it nor really having the energy or time to mess in someone else's. The average person just doesn't want terrorists to come over here and set off nukes or blow up some more populated buildings, but otherwise? Most people just don't care about what's happening overseas.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #17
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I mean, there are other aspects of the right that seem nuts to me too, but this inability to separate church from state is really menacing to me.
    The issue is so "value-ized" that not having values nor wanting them to be imposed by one group is defined as a "value" as well. (Kind of like them saying an atheist not believing in God is just another religious belief, or that a scientist is just exercising another kind of belief. Everything is defined as a religious belief, even the absence of belief.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #18
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I'm thinking part of the problem is that we haven't been sending our kids off to die.
    A lot of truth in that at so many levels. The US has become very efficient at waging war (war is probably not the right word, but I can't think of a better one).

    I've heard a lot of complaints about the "drones" lately, where we can bomb the crap out of things with little/no risk to our own soldiers while causing damage to infrastructure (i.e., city buildings) as well as bystanders. If anything pisses off a foreign country against us, I'd guess that would contribute.
    Frustration does that, regardless of how clean the US fights (clean being relative). Powerlessness is a major psy-op component in that kind of warfare.

    Most of the people I know are wondering why the hell we're still overseas.
    Two answers for that, at least from my POV

    1) It's economically efficient to project power (dollar hegemony, political influence, etc.) This is both at the political and business level. Power has an intrinsic value (such as in trade disputes, etc.)

    2) It's dangerous to pull back. Relinquishing power doesn't erase memories and less power projection means increased risk. You're at an equilibrium now that, while costly, is not as costly as the transient stage you would have to pass through to get to the next equilibrium.


    What the world really fears is the (perceived) instanity of the people guiding a lot of these decisions. We can only measure the health of the country, politically, by who gets elected... Federal down to state. It's not encouraging. Seriously, it's rather terrifying.

  9. #19
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    what concerns me more than the outcome of the election is the staggering US deficit, declining productivity (which both candidates seem to be in denial about) & squeezed middle class. that be srs for the planet. this aint greece - there's no merkel waiting in the wings to pay the credit card bill for a bit. sure i'd love for gay people to be able to get married there and for you guys to have a decent healthcare safetynet, but those things won't affect me on a day to day basis as much as a total implosion of your economy.

    i wish there was a candidate that i thought had a decent chance of addressing these issues, but i don't see one on the ticket. the US primary/nomination process, toxic campaign ads, dirt digging squads, and pretty much unfettered political donations means that it's not exactly a merit selection process. $$

    i'm going to the US next month for a holiday. i'm very interested to speak with people about the election and how they feel about these issues...american politics is fascinating and bizarre.

  10. #20
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    I guess insane would fit regarding republican presidents and their outer america perception. So I've read a long article of the german foreign minister for America as well, which states that Romney could be the better guy for economics. Its just the question if you like to sacrifice your human rights for that.

    Regarding the vote the foreign ministry tho said as well that no president will really have the absolute power cause House and Senate are voted as well and will be eventually able to block the presidents again.

    Besides all that it prolly will be a hard lesson for most americans and europeans that the next economic empire will be China.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

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