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View Poll Results: Non-Americans, who would you vote for?

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  • Romney

    1 3.23%
  • Obama

    30 96.77%
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  1. #131
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    @lowtech I was being ironic. Something I'd expect most non-rednecks to understand.

    It's very apparent how weary and run-down Obama has become over the last 4 years having to deal with this shit, when all he ever wanted was to get on with the job. It's a major drawback of democracy - the need to pander to the lowest common denominator. Kind of a drawback of this forum too...
    Yeah, this was my thought as well. Even some of the phrasing, which is weird.

    Anyway, what Jennifer mentioned derives primarily from the Tea Party camp - which, for those unaware, is a quasi-populist anti-intellectual movement centered around the likes of such blowhards as the politician-cum-squash author, Sarah Palin and former Delaware senator Christine O'Donnell, among others. Being fair, they had some interesting ideas on budget management and spending cuts, but the aim of their 'fringe wing' PR campaign primarily centered on, I offer, capitalizing on racial xenophobia and the loss of white privilege, starting in about 2009, by attacking Obama's national heritage and his religious background through celebrity endorsement by the likes of Donald Trump and a castoff from SNL.

    It's mean-spirited misdirection, and it distracts focus away from real concerns and onto fabricated minutiae.

  2. #132
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I think this is a cultural thing, but I found it rather jarring when I first moved to the States. I love my country and I do believe it is one of the best places in the world to be in these days, but I don't think I would ever vocalize that in the presence of those from other countries unless I thought they felt the same. I realize that Canada is not the same kind of world power, but I was struck by the deep cultural differences that we had (perhaps shaped by our separate histories?), despite having great similarities in other ways.

    Jennifer suggested that it's seen more like just being proud of your family. I would venture to say that though that may be the sentiment, that is not the message that seems implied to those looking on. Pride is one thing, but this sounds more to my ears like, "The rest of your families SUCK! We're in a competition and mine's the BEST" shouted in a public place. I remember travelling in Europe and hearing a group of drunk Americans singing the anthem loudly. It just seemed obnoxious and pushy, even if no one was offended. (Clearly, that's an isolated incident and I think Canadians almost go overboard in the opposite direction, but that wouldn't even by on the radar for us to do when drunk!)

    Since becoming closer friends with more Americans, I have more context that allows me to hear it differently, so I am less likely to take it that way than I once was. I think you make an interesting point, Jennifer, about Americans expecting expressions of pride in country or statement of values to know they are indeed present rather than leaving it as an implied sentiment. That's something I hadn't thought about. I do believe that each of our country's respective histories go a long way in forming our style of expression (both spoken and unspoken) and in shaping what traits are most valued in a leader. As with personality, I think we tend to look at interactions and compare them with how various other groups interact with us to interpret meaning, instead of how a particular country interacts in a variety of different situations itself to provide the context.
    I don't know... I tend to think that Americans are generally much more in-your-face about it, but Canadians do quite a bit of "our country is the greatest," too. But I guess it's closer to implied as far as being more like "well, our country is the best place to live. We hardly even have to point that out, do we?" Although people do still point it out.

    Then there was the time when I was at the Canadian pub in central London, and as we left when the place was closing, a guy was peeing on a lamppost and singing "O Canada". A glorious moment indeed.

    Boy oh boy, do I ever get sick of people back home asking me how I could leave the West Coast to go anywhere else. It's SO insular. Mind you, I also get plenty of people from other parts of the world asking why I would leave Canada to live in the UK, and if I'm crazy.

    I probably have a somewhat different perspective as a Canadian because I haven't lived in the US, and really haven't spent much time there...but I have lived in Europe (or the British Isles, anyway) for the last ten years. I've certainly had Brits who have spent time in Canada say things to me like "well, you guys aren't all loud and 'God Bless' about it like Americans are, but you sure do have a lot of flags around and seem convinced that Canada is the finest place anyone could live."

    I do know what you mean, though, insofar as America and Canada seem superficially similar - probably a lot more so than many/most Canadians would admit - but there are deep cultural differences. It's certainly the case that there is far more acceptance of a union between religion and politics, although there are also a lot of Americans who don't agree with that. I have one European parent and spent a lot of time there from childhood on, whereas I have no ties to the US and even my travelling there has been limited compared to my European travels. So for me the US has always kind of been a foreign country. I admit I should probably spend more time there before I comment.
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  3. #133
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    I thought the greatest country on earth was North Korea...
    I think they have the best puppet shows.



    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    Yeah, this was my thought as well. Even some of the phrasing, which is weird.

    Anyway, what Jennifer mentioned derives primarily from the Tea Party camp - which, for those unaware, is a quasi-populist anti-intellectual movement centered around the likes of such blowhards as the politician-cum-squash author, Sarah Palin and former Delaware senator Christine O'Donnell, among others. Being fair, they had some interesting ideas on budget management and spending cuts, but the aim of their 'fringe wing' PR campaign primarily centered on, I offer, capitalizing on racial xenophobia and the loss of white privilege, starting in about 2009, by attacking Obama's national heritage and his religious background through celebrity endorsement by the likes of Donald Trump and a castoff from SNL.

    It's mean-spirited misdirection, and it distracts focus away from real concerns and onto fabricated minutiae.
    Yeah, thanks for summarizing that. And because of my family and where I lived, I had to deal with that kind of mentality a great deal throughout my life -- I've actually felt relieved living in Maryland the last six months, it is a VERY different atmosphere in the metro area.

    I see the 2012 election as a counter to the counter-movement of 2010 that brought them into power and feel like they had some kind of endorsement from the populace that could be continually exploited, including sweeping Obama out of office this year.

    (Basically, the Obama-ites overhyped him in 2008, so the expectations were too high; when he failed to meet them quickly, the Tea Party gained large amounts of ground; but this year their own hubris resulted in a massive lost for the 'pubs, although they did keep solid control of the House. But Michele Bachmann, for example, almost lost her seat. And some other big Republicans went down, including Tommy Thompson, who was in Bush's administration, who lost his seat to a woman who is now the first openly gay senator.)
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  4. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    But yes, there's a brand of patriotism here that, when coupled with other comments and behavior and criticisms directed at the rest of the world, makes it clear that some people do thing we are better than other countries just because we're capitalist and democratic and religious. I mean, one reason I left my church is because I was sick of the patriotic aspect where no one was allowed to criticize the war or even question why we were overseas, without the military folks telling us we were disrespecting American soldiers and not being supportive of the Presidency, and people getting pissed off enough to not talk to each other anymore.
    We're better than you because we love free speech so much. And don't you dare fucking deny it or we'll set you on fire!!!!!

    And it seems to be getting ever worse. Like it's trying to out-do Islamic extremism in the craziness stakes.

    We can even do fanaticism better than you can! Yes we can!!!!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
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  5. #135
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    I don't know... I tend to think that Americans are generally much more in-your-face about it, but Canadians do quite a bit of "our country is the greatest," too. But I guess it's closer to implied as far as being more like "well, our country is the best place to live. We hardly even have to point that out, do we?" Although people do still point it out.

    Then there was the time when I was at the Canadian pub in central London, and as we left when the place was closing, a guy was peeing on a lamppost and singing "O Canada". A glorious moment indeed.

    Boy oh boy, do I ever get sick of people asking me how I could leave the West Coast to go anywhere else. It's SO insular. Mind you, I also get plenty of people from other parts of the world asking why I would leave Canada to live in the UK, and if I'm crazy.

    I probably have a somewhat different perspective as a Canadian because I haven't lived in the US, and really haven't spent much time there...but I have lived in Europe (or the British Isles, anyway) for the last ten years. I've certainly had Brits who have spent time in Canada say things to me like "well, you guys aren't all loud and 'God Bless' about it like Americans are, but you sure do have a lot of flags around and seem convinced that Canada is the finest place anyone could live."

    I do know what you mean, though, insofar as America and Canada seem superficially similar - probably a lot more so than many/most Canadians would admit - but there are deep cultural differences. It's certainly the case that there is far more acceptance of a union betwee religion and politics, although there are also a lot of Americans who don't agree with that. I have one European parent and spent a lot of time there from childhood on, whereas I have no ties to the US and even my travelling there has been limited compared to my European travels. So for me the US has always kind of been a foreign country. I admit I should probably spend more time there before I comment.
    Some Americans are "in your face" about it, but they're the ones who lost this election.

    One thing Obama said that was true, the US is the most diverse nation on the planet.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #136
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    @lowtech I was being ironic. Something I'd expect most non-rednecks to understand.
    Considering some of your rhetoric throughout this thread, its difficult to tell.....not exactly constructive criticism, especially if you ever aim to do more than preach to the converted.

  7. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    We're better than you because we love free speech so much. And don't you dare fucking deny it or we'll set you on fire!!!!!

    And it seems to be getting ever worse. Like it's trying to out-do Islamic extremism in the craziness stakes.

    We can even do fanaticism better than you can! Yes we can!!!!!!
    It certainly appears to be shifting in that direction; I initially became very alarmed in the early 2000's (as many others did), and knew it would be shifting more that way over time.
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  8. #138
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    Even the more sincere/nice conservative religious folks were disturbed by the results. Those on my FB Friends list were posting reassuring messages last night: "It'll be okay. God is still in control." No other explanation, but none were needed... It's just funny, it's like Obama having another four years is like the entire country is sinking like the Titanic in 20 minutes and we must face death bravely; or our plane landed in the Alps and the only food we have to eat is each other, but God will provide a ram.

    I know they sincerely feel like this is a moral and natural disaster, but it makes you wonder how we can move forward with attitudes so widely varied and not really aligned communally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    We're better than you because we love free speech so much. And don't you dare fucking deny it or we'll set you on fire!!!!!

    And it seems to be getting ever worse. Like it's trying to out-do Islamic extremism in the craziness stakes.

    We can even do fanaticism better than you can! Yes we can!!!!!!
    Ooooh. Did you really just compare us God-lovin', family-oriented, morally valued, apple pie Christuns to those crazy violent backwards Muslim camel jockeys (ha ha) who are gonna burn for their iniquities?

    ... oh, now you've done it. God will not be mocked.
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  9. #139
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    @Lateralus Well..that too is changing. I know that the Western European countries are getting a non-stop influx of Middle Eastern, Northern African and Eastern-European cultures, which is causing a lot of problems. Ironically, we could look to the US to see how to solve that shit, as it is been going on longer over there. Makes me wonder if we are facing the same issues in the future
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  10. #140
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Some Americans are "in your face" about it, but they're the ones who lost this election.
    Mm... Living across the pond, I've got to say that it seems as though many (if not most) Europeans think that virtually ALL Americans are like the most flag-waving, gun-totin, right-wing fundamentalist types.
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